my feet are shrinking - guidance with remounts (pivots)

[thebrucemac]

Looking for some guidance/reassurance from the collective.

Bare with the backstory if you will. Went to a local shop yesterday to check out their end-of-season sale. In the market for some new boots, so got to talking to the bootfitter. It was slow, so we had a nice chat and I was able to ask a bunch of questions, try on a couple pair of boots and get measured up. Turns out, like many people, my current boots (Lange RS and Rossi AllTrak 130) are too big. According to him, not just 1 full size, but 1.5 Mondo (with fair amount of boot work). Argh! My feet aren't weird, but I do have a slightly above average instep, so we got to talking a little about next year's models and what brands/models he thought might be a good match or starting point. So to the point of my anxiety: All my skis are mounted on the line with pivots at ~327 BSL. Going down 1 or 1.5 Mondo is going to put me at a ~310 BSL, well above any adjustment on the Pivots. So my question is am I going to be okay distance from center on the existing holes for remounts? It's got to be at least 1cm right? Not crazy about the idea, and I'll probably keep a pair of skis as is just to teach in with existing boots for comfort, but I trust this guy and want the free ski performance gains of a proper fit.

FWIW, he was steering me towards the new Lange RS 130 or the Hawx Ultra 130. Is the 2019 Hawx Ultra, the hulk green Ultra 130s? I'm also looking at this year's Nordica Dobermann GP 130 (they have red on them).

Any guidance or reassurance is appreciated. Spent a fair amount on new sticks this year and was bummed to find out I need to rethink my BSL and mounts.

[auvgeek]

According to him, not just 1 full size, but 1.5 Mondo (with fair amount of boot work).

What exactly is 1.5 mondo sizes?

[thebrucemac]

28.5 down to 27 and depending on brand, ~10mm less in BSL.

[auvgeek]

My point was that no brand has a half mondo size. You're either down 1 full or 2 full.

Remount heels +15mm and adjust backwards.

[thebrucemac]

Sorry, I get it now and you'e right. Does that put me behind the recommended line though? It doesn't because I'm soaking it back up with the adjustment?

My point was that no brand has a half mondo size. You're either down 1 full or 2 full.

Remount heels +15mm and adjust backwards.

[auvgeek]

I think you'd be forward of the line 1/2 the difference in your bsl change, so like 5 mm or less. Nothing to stress over. Your foot itself hasn't changed and is likely in a similar position on the ski (though with less movement cuz now your boots will fit), so I doubt you'll even notice a difference in mount position. You could also move the toes back 15 mm, but I'd only recommend that if your skis are mounted at the true center.

[thebrucemac]

Thanks for talking me down auvgeek. Really appreciate it. Feeling better.

[auvgeek]

No problem. Just be wary of any boot fitter who thinks/claims/implies boots come in half mondo sizes. Also, the Hawx Ultra and the Lange RS are pretty different in terms of weight, so just know what you're getting into.

[Jonny Snow]

Looking for some guidance/reassurance from the collective.

Bare with the backstory if you will. Went to a local shop yesterday to check out their end-of-season sale. In the market for some new boots, so got to talking to the bootfitter. It was slow, so we had a nice chat and I was able to ask a bunch of questions, try on a couple pair of boots and get measured up. Turns out, like many people, my current boots (Lange RS and Rossi AllTrak 130) are too big. According to him, not just 1 full size, but 1.5 Mondo (with fair amount of boot work). Argh! My feet aren't weird, but I do have a slightly above average instep, so we got to talking a little about next year's models and what brands/models he thought might be a good match or starting point. So to the point of my anxiety: All my skis are mounted on the line with pivots at ~327 BSL. Going down 1 or 1.5 Mondo is going to put me at a ~310 BSL, well above any adjustment on the Pivots. So my question is am I going to be okay distance from center on the existing holes for remounts? It's got to be at least 1cm right? Not crazy about the idea, and I'll probably keep a pair of skis as is just to teach in with existing boots for comfort, but I trust this guy and want the free ski performance gains of a proper fit.

FWIW, he was steering me towards the new Lange RS 130 or the Hawx Ultra 130. Is the 2019 Hawx Ultra, the hulk green Ultra 130s? I'm also looking at this year's Nordica Dobermann GP 130 (they have red on them).

Any guidance or reassurance is appreciated. Spent a fair amount on new sticks this year and was bummed to find out I need to rethink my BSL and mounts.

Are you an adult person who has been skiing at a somewhat high level for quite a while? I HIGHLY doubt you're in a boot that's too big.

I've been in the same boot size since I was a teen, which has been quite a good while. It's NEVER, EVER one size up or down. I'm appropriately downsized for a good high performance fit, two sizes down from my street shoe size.

What do you measure on a branock device and what size street shoe do you wear? Did you ACTUALLY try on a 27 mondopoint boot in a 98mm last with a custom insole and find them comfortable?

Boot fitting is not rocket science, but there are plenty of morons boot fitting. 95% of people are in oversized boots. If you are in correctly sized boots, eventually someone is going to try to put you in smaller boots, just because.

I smell BS.

[3PinGrin]

Are you an adult person who has been skiing at a somewhat high level for quite a while? I HIGHLY doubt you're in a boot that's too big.

I've been in the same boot size since I was a teen, which has been quite a good while. It's NEVER, EVER one size up or down. I'm appropriately downsized for a good fit.

What do you measure on a branock device and what size street shoe do you wear? Did you ACTUALLY try on a 27 mondopoint boot in a 98mm last with a custom insole and find them comfortable?

Boot fitting is not rocket science, but there are plenty of morons boot fitting. 95% of people are in oversized boots. If you are in correctly sized boots, eventually someone is going to try to put you in smaller boots, just because.

I smell BS.

You do realize that most people's feet elongate with time, right? Maybe you're still young, but there is absolutely no way I could now wear the same size comfortably that I wore in high school.

[Dee Hubbs]

I started a big response on how to remount your pivots for a 10mm difference. Short answer is yes its doable, long answer it takes some skill and some expert understanding of adjustment range and mounting placements against previous holes. But sounds like your shop does not even know a 27 and 27.5 boot is the same size shell, so I the gave up on my long winded technical explanation of moving a pivot mount 10mm.

[FlimFlamvanHam]

And to the OP, if your pivots were mounted correctly, you should be in the middle of their range for adjustment (for bsl).

If you drop 10mm in BSL, as Auvgeek said, you will be 5mm ahead of where you are now and if you notice that, it's all in your head.

But more importantly, your pivot heels, if currently mounted in middle of adustment range, will wind in enough to work with that shorter BSL. I know this from lots of experience with them. I only bring this point up because there is so much bs on the web about those binding having an extremely short adjustment range.

[N1CK.]

And to the OP, if your pivots were mounted correctly, you should be in the middle of their range for adjustment (for bsl).

If you drop 10mm in BSL, as Auvgeek said, you will be 5mm ahead of where you are now and if you notice that, it's all in your head.

But more importantly, your pivot heels, if currently mounted in middle of adustment range, will wind in enough to work with that shorter BSL. I know this from lots of experience with them. I only bring this point up because there is so much bs on the web about those binding having an extremely short adjustment range.

Just this week I talked to my local ski shop (well known and reputable) and asked them about mounting a P14 to split the difference between a 325 and 322 BSL. They flat out said no they won't do it, that "if you mounted them right" Pivots can't accommodate two different sized boots. I said thanks and walked.

[thebrucemac]

Thanks for the replies guys. The 1.5 was me being dramatic. We (bootfitter and I) realize the shells are the same in half sizes, I was just surprised to see the Nordica scale I was sitting/standing on show a 27. Toe was actually slightly over, but he's like yup, you're a 27 at most, maybe even a 26. I haven't bought new boots in at least 3 years. Whenever that AllTrak came out. Langes are even older. What I'm wondering is if I'm going to have an aha moment once I get dialed and on snow. Hope so, and hopefully can feel my toes! For now, I'm just glad there's hope for minimal ski drilling on my existing mounts.

Really appreciate the replies and guidance.

[Jonny Snow]

Thanks for the replies guys. The 1.5 was me being dramatic. We (bootfitter and I) realize the shells are the same in half sizes, I was just surprised to see the Nordica scale I was sitting/standing on show a 27. Toe was actually slightly over, but he's like yup, you're a 27 at most, maybe even a 26. I haven't bought new boots in at least 3 years. Whenever that AllTrak came out. Langes are even older. What I'm wondering is if I'm going to have an aha moment once I get dialed and on snow. Hope so, and hopefully can feel my toes! For now, I'm just glad there's hope for minimal ski drilling on my existing mounts.

Really appreciate the replies and guidance.

What do you measure on a standard brannock device, and what is your typical shoe size? Are you a standard D width?

According to Nordica's sizing chart, a 27 mondopoint is a US men's size 9. Are you a size 9?

https://www.sportdepot.bg/files/nome...s-292-4566.pdf

[auvgeek]

But more importantly, your pivot heels, if currently mounted in middle of adustment range, will wind in enough to work with that shorter BSL. I know this from lots of experience with them. I only bring this point up because there is so much bs on the web about those binding having an extremely short adjustment range.

Pretty sure pivot heels have approximately +/- 7 mm adjustment from the middle knurl band to the outer knurl bands. So if he's mounted in the middle of the range for a 327 bsl and he drops to a 310, it def won't adjust. He he drops 10mm to a 317, it may or may not work, if he cranks them down past the inner knurled band.

[thebrucemac]

I’m an 11 D, high instep, solid 11, but fairly skinny heel.

I forgot to mention I tried on the 98 last speedmachine in a 28 (didn’t have a 26) to get a feel for a Nordi but could get a very tiny bit of heel lift with a good forward flex in a thick everyday sport sock and no inserts.

/edit it was a speedmachine 130, not sportmachine.

Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Jonny Snow]

I’m an 11 D, high instep, solid 11, but fairly skinny heel.

I forgot to mention I tried on the 98 last sport machine in a 28 (didn’t have a 26) to get a feel for a Nordi but could get a very tiny bit of heel lift with a good forward flex in a thick everyday sport sock and no inserts.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Size 11D in a 28 mondopoint is a pretty standard performance fit. 27 mondo is an aggressive expert fit, especially with a high instep. 26 mondo would be an elite tier racing only fit, don't even consider it. If you're having heel lift issues, consider a narrower boot, custom liner, or non-full tilt cabrio style boot (full tilts don't work with high insteps), and make sure your overall bootboard, liner, and insole height is low so your heel gets down in the plastic pocket of the shell. Sizing down may or may not help with a narrow heel, it's not guaranteed to.

As far as the pivots, I would re-mount the toe back by the amount you boot sole changes, and keep the existing heel holes. With a shorter boot, your femur position isn't really going to change vs. the heel lug, thus you should leave the heel position alone. Also the rear of the ski experiences more stress, especially with pivots, thus it is preferable to have the extra holes in front.

[stuckathuntermtn]

I have measured 27.5 on one device and 28 on another. It's all about the shell fit, though, so I'm typically a 27.5 or about 315mm BSL. 327 to 310 seems a bit of a jump, but that's the outside of the boot. 8.5mm forward might be a noticeable difference, but ymmv. And the binding adjustment should make it.

[Jonny Snow]

I have measured 27.5 on one device and 28 on another. It's all about the shell fit, though, so I'm typically a 27.5 or about 315mm BSL. 327 to 310 seems a bit of a jump, but that's the outside of the boot. 8.5mm forward might be a noticeable difference, but ymmv. And the binding adjustment should make it.

The Langes and Atomics in question are going to be around 315mm in 27 mondo, which is pretty typical:

https://www.evo.com/guides/ski-boot-...gth-size-chart

[gregL]

The Langes and Atomics in question are going to be around 315mm in 27 mondo, which is pretty typical:

https://www.evo.com/guides/ski-boot-...gth-size-chart

The Hawx Ultra will be 310mm, the Hawx Ultra XTD 312, and the Lange RX will be 316. Whoever compiled that list needs to add some new boots . . .

[gregL]

Some hints for determining your size:

Ignore your street shoe size and conversion charts, they are aimed at the least-skilled and least experienced segment of the skiing population who don't understand the metric system. The Nordica conversion chart (which happens to be the same as that used by REI, Backcountry, skis.com, etc.) errs on the big side (results in less returned boots). evo's conversion chart calls Nordica's conversion a "comfort" fit, a "performance" fit is one size down. They also hint at an "expert" fit that's one size smaller still.

Your measured length on a Brannock is usually a pretty good indicator, but there are things that can render that inaccurate (heel spurs, toe shape).

Shell fit is the most reliable way to gauge length - put your foot in the shell with your toes touching the end of the boot and measure the vacant space behind your heel.

There is no single "right" answer to what size shell you should buy. For three different skiers with identical feet, there are at least three potential indicated mondopoint sizes.

[FlimFlamvanHam]

Pretty sure pivot heels have approximately +/- 7 mm adjustment from the middle knurl band to the outer knurl bands. So if he's mounted in the middle of the range for a 327 bsl and he drops to a 310, it def won't adjust. He he drops 10mm to a 317, it may or may not work, if he cranks them down past the inner knurled band.

Right. And this is the "pretty sure" stuff I'm trying to correct to "positive it is ~20mm".

The strips on the rear struts are reference points so person mounting/adjusting can get each side close to equal: they are not limits (in other words you can wind in past the lowest marker and out past the end one, although winding much out past the end one is stretching things).

If mounted properly and at middle marking on struts you can accommodate a 10mm shorter bsl, just wind it close to all the way in. I've spend a ton of time on this very set up for same reasons and works perfectly and proper forward pressure. Works vice versa as well but only personal experience I can vouch for is +5mm bsl.

Oh, and not that blister is always right,

http://blistergearreview.com/gear-re...-binding-guide

Which says:

LOOK Pivot 18

Blister Reviews the Look Pivot 18 alpine binding
Look Pivot 18

Price: $475
Stated Weight: 1245 g per binding
Stack Height: 18 mm (toe); 19 mm (heel)
Elasticity – Toe: 40 mm
Elasticity – Heel: 28 mm
DIN Range: 8-18
******* Range of Adjustability (for different-sized boots): 20 mm *******
Boot Compatibilities: ISO Alpine 5355 (WTR AFD sold separately)


Ok, back to the OP and his boots.

[auvgeek]

If mounted properly and at middle marking on struts you can accommodate a 10mm shorter bsl, just wind it close to all the way in. I've spend a ton of time on this very set up for same reasons and works perfectly and proper forward pressure. Works vice versa as well but only personal experience I can vouch for is +5mm bsl.

So you're saying the most you can personally vouch for is 15 mm? How is that much different than me saying +/- 7 mm = 14 mm.

I fully understand Look/Rossi claims +/- 10mm, but I think that's a stretch based on my personal experience with them. I have plenty of experience with hand-mounted and shop-mounted pivots, and adjusting for different boots. Most of my friends in the PNW have a 300-320 bsl. Most of us run P18s. We like to swap skis. In my experience, a 300 and 320 bsl cannot fit in the same binding (either mounted by hand or by a shop) with proper forward pressure. Sometimes we do it anyway for a few runs, but are careful with how we ski.

A complicating factor is that boot soles don't necessarily measure what they're marked to be. So if the OP drops "exactly" 10 mm to a 317 boot, it could easily measure small and be outside your claimed 10 mm range. Or his current boots could measure small and his new boots would fit just fine. We have no way of knowing.

Finally, if you go past the inner markings, it is possible to damage the plastic on some boots, depending on the shape of the heel.

[thebrucemac]

Thanks again all for the help and guidance. Good to know it should work out on the Pivots, total bonus if I don't have to re-drill.

Not the best time to try and find local boot inventory to try on. I'll likely either have to wait until late summer (new RS 130 or Hawx Ultra) or roll the dice online on this year's Dobermann GP 130 in a 27/27.5.

Couple more questions in case others know. I've heard Nordica in general is good for folks with moderate to higher insteps due to the height/space mid-foot. Is this true? Anybody skiing or carpet tested the GP 130?

Lastly, on the 2019 Hawx Ultra, is the new model for next season renamed the Hawx Ultra 130S? The one I'm seeing online in the "Hulk" green color? I've heard a lot of good things about this years Atomics and it's on my list, but realize I need to try it on. Just wondering if that's the replacement for this years as I haven't been able to find anything else other than the new revamped Prime, which I'm pretty sure will be too wide.