Why aren't cabrio boots the norm?

[burrito]

I love 3-piece boots. After trading for a pair of Kryptons in my teens, I've never looked back. With the full understanding that a well fit boot performs best (I happen to be a good fit for Dalbello's and Full Tilt's lasts) I have always found cabrio boots to be more comfortable, more responsive, and generally better performing. They're easier to get in and out of, easier to make, more adaptable to different flexes, and extend more easily into different categories. Case in point: the vast majority of new performance touring boots, where the most boot innovation is occurring right now, are moving to 3-piece designs.

Despite all of that, overlap boots by far outnumber them. They are the norm for in-bounds riding. I get that the design often makes sense for a 1-gazillion flex race boot, but why do people prefer them in other scenarios? Do people actually prefer them? Or are they just what the general public has come to believe a ski boot is? I'd love to hear from the pro-overlap community, which I assume is the majority of skiers out there. Any input and perspective is appreciated.

[nyskirat]

I mean I think you hit it with a well-fit boot statement. There are a lot more options for overlap boots than there are cabrio. For Cabrio you're really limited to 2 major brands (Dalbello and FT) and then some smaller ones like Roxa.

The next few points are just guesses so if they're wrong, my bad.

I'm no boot fitter, but I imagine it's easier to work on a 2 piece shell than 3 piece.

I've never skied a cabrio design either but I have heard that lateral stiffness (at least historically) was a big reason for many people to avoid them.

[rod9301]

The dalbellos boot flex well.
Any of the three piece Backcountry boots, dynafit, scarpa, etc. Flex like shit, like hitting a brick wall.

And I don't think that touring boots are moving to a three piece design, Lange, Technica, are certainly not. And they know how to design boots.

Years ago, I struggled with scarpas, three pairs garmont, two pairs. And I can tell you that in my opinion, they had no clue how to design a boot that skis well.

All the emphasis was, and it still is, in the uphill.

Look at all the talk about range, when in reality, even my Lange freetours have adequate range for skinning.

Back when I was struggling in scarpas, all the steep skiers on chamonix were skiing in Alpine boots, modified with Vibram soles.

None would even consider the three piece abominations.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using TGR Forums mobile app

[XavierD]

Because, Cabrio boots ski like shit.

Well kind of...
WC skiers are not necessarily in uber stiff boots. They are however in very powerful boots which allow the skier an increadably amount of control over tip drive and direction.

Cabrio boots are on edge or not on edge, and generally don’t drive the tip of the ski for shit. By separating the lateral and forward flex the boot removes a lot of the micro control a skier can have over the boot or ski. The design also eats up gobs of energy (hence the cant drive a tip for shit comment). This makes them great for many freestyle and freeride skiers who often want to let the ski find its own path rather than try and drive through every imperfection in the snow. Not so good for when you want that ski to turn at exactly one place. Essentially the three piece boot loosens up the skier’s connection with the snow.

Cabrio boots also have influenced a lot of folks into full rocker skis. You don’t have to drive the ski into the turn. Just tip it over.

Could most skiers notice any of what I just talked about? Maybe not.

[auvgeek]

I've tried both recently. Overlap boots have a more progressive flex, while cabrio boot have a more linear flex. I sometimes hit the end of my ankle ROM in a cabrio boot when skiing fast in choppy terrain because the flex doesn't ramp up much through the range of motion. I was predisposed to want cabrio boots to work, but they just didn't for me. Overlap boots are just better for how I ski right now.

If you haven't skied an overlap boot since your teens, maybe it's time to give it another go?

[Skidog]

Skied Cabrio in the 80s and 90s. Swapped to overlap over the last 20ish years. A few touring boots tossed in there. Currently skiing dalbellos (panterra 120) I personally think they are way more comfortable and the flex seems "smoother". Despite earlier post I can still drive the hell out of the tips and turn where and when I want. Not always on a full rocker ski. Lately mostly Cochise...

Sent from my XT1650 using TGR Forums mobile app

[nickel]

what you're calling "smoother flex" is what others are calling linear. It doesn't ramp up.

I tried the lupo 130c and didn't get the hype about stiffness. I can just plow through the forward stiffness because it doesn't ramp up, I can just keep flexing it. I personally have yet to ski a 3 piece boot I actually like. YMMV. That's why there's different products out there.

[mntlion]

because not everything works for everybody?

thats why we have lots of brands, that fit and feel different

[adrenalated]

I previously owned Dalbello Krypton Pros and now own Dalbello Scorpions. Same brand, same size, same (supposed) flex of 130.

The Scorpions can apply WAY more power to the edge, with way less effort, and are way more precise. Like, not even close.
The Kryptons were more consistent over temperature changes (didn't soften up as much in warm weather), were more forgiving, and much easier to get on and off. The Scorpions make me want to cry every time I put them on or take them off.

[Skidog]

what you're calling "smoother flex" is what others are calling linear. It doesn't ramp up.

I tried the lupo 130c and didn't get the hype about stiffness. I can just plow through the forward stiffness because it doesn't ramp up, I can just keep flexing it. I personally have yet to ski a 3 piece boot I actually like. YMMV. That's why there's different products out there.

That's you....I.think they ski just as good as my overlaps or better. I don't really rely on my equipment I try to use solid ski skills. Remember some of us used to ski non shaped 202cm skinny skis with rear entry boots. Emphasis then was skill not relying on the boot or ski to help much.

I too find the edge pressure and quickness much better in a Cabrio.

Sent from my XT1650 using TGR Forums mobile app

[JRainey]

All the touring "3 piece" boots just use the tongue to add material to the front of the boot, just to increase stiffness. They are all locked at the spine of the boot.

The reason why dalbellos flex well is that there is nothing locking the spine of the boot and all the forward flex characteristics can be determined by the tongue. Mostly.

[thebrucemac]

Lost a couple big toe nails with these bad boys in the 80's!!! Good times!

[billyk]

Lost a couple big toe nails with these bad boys in the 80's!!! Good times!

I had a pair of those, up until a couple years ago in fact. I hadn’t skied for maybe 10 years, and when I took those skiing I discovered the liners were melting away. Got new boots and discovered Raichle was no longer around. So I went overlap. Big difference!

I thought the Raichles were a big improvement over the rental boots I used before that, but that’s just because they fit a little better. The new overlap boots I have now fit much much better, once I manage to get them on, that is.

[nickel]

That's you....I.think they ski just as good as my overlaps or better. I don't really rely on my equipment I try to use solid ski skills. Remember some of us used to ski non shaped 202cm skinny skis with rear entry boots. Emphasis then was skill not relying on the boot or ski to help much.

I too find the edge pressure and quickness much better in a Cabrio.

Sent from my XT1650 using TGR Forums mobile app

Oooh shots fired re: solid technique.

Did you used to get made fun of for your midget 202 skinny skis? What's wrong, didn't have the technique for 210s?

Seriously though gtfo with that technique bullshit. I'm a big guy. I've toured with 90 flex boots. I can probably still ski circles around you in them but that doesn't mean I like it.

[gramboh]

Not a huge fan of how my Maestrale 1.0's ski... I'm a bigger dude (210lbs) and the flex feels very on/off compared to an overlap boot. In powder it's fine but I don't like them on hard/variable snow. They tour pretty well though... will be looking at overlap for next boot, probably new Tecnica Zero G or Atomic Hawx.

[Skidog]

Oooh shots fired re: solid technique.

Did you used to get made fun of for your midget 202 skinny skis? What's wrong, didn't have the technique for 210s?

Seriously though gtfo with that technique bullshit. I'm a big guy. I've toured with 90 flex boots. I can probably still ski circles around you in them but that doesn't mean I like it.

That's why everyone is different. I wasn't knocking anyone's technique, however poster I was responding too I believe said something about people skiing more rockered skis cause Cabrio can handle other skis. I disagree.

I too have skied a few 90 or less flex tourers (garmont adrenaline) and they were just ok, but at the time were one of the "better" choices. I could still ski just fine. Inbounds and out (I'm not a boot quiver guy).

I had some 210s at one point but they weren't as fun in tight vt hardwoods I grew up skiing.

Sent from my XT1650 using TGR Forums mobile app

[doebedoe]

I'd wager that them not being the norm has almost nothing to do with the performance benefits of one design compared to another for the vast vast majority of skiers.

They're the norm because by far the largest boot manufacturers are primarily invested in overlap designs. This is because they have to been for ages, and because overlap designs work better in high performance situations like racing. (Everyone in the race world treated Bodies "return" on Full Tilt as the joke-show it was.) The big boot manufacturers are all from Euroland where racing is much more popular, as is groomer skiing in general. Having a good race boot is critical to biz success for multiple reasons.

And so they are tooled up and experienced to build overlap boots. Plus people like to where a boot similar to what their heros are wearing. (See for example, tom wallischs impact on FT.)

If Atomic/Solly, Tecnica, Lange, Nordica, Head all had a reason to get into the cabrio market, I'm sure a lot of skiers would like them. They perform well enough for the vast majority of skiers, and are far easier on and off. But what is their incentive to invest in such a massive retooling and relearning if the market ain't demanding it?

[rod9301]

I'd wager that them not being the norm has almost nothing to do with the performance benefits of one design compared to another for the vast vast majority of skiers.

They're the norm because by far the largest boot manufacturers are primarily invested in overlap designs. This is because they have to been for ages, and because overlap designs work better in high performance situations like racing. (Everyone in the race world treated Bodies "return" on Full Tilt as the joke-show it was.) The big boot manufacturers are all from Euroland where racing is much more popular, as is groomer skiing in general. Having a good race boot is critical to biz success for multiple reasons.

And so they are tooled up and experienced to build overlap boots. Plus people like to where a boot similar to what their heros are wearing. (See for example, tom wallischs impact on FT.)

If Atomic/Solly, Tecnica, Lange, Nordica, Head all had a reason to get into the cabrio market, I'm sure a lot of skiers would like them. They perform well enough for the vast majority of skiers, and are far easier on and off. But what is their incentive to invest in such a massive retooling and relearning if the market ain't demanding it?

The tooling is unique for each boot.
So the freetour of different than RS 130

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using TGR Forums mobile app

[Skidog]

I thought back in the rachiele flexon days a lot of ski racers used them?

Sent from my XT1650 using TGR Forums mobile app

[doebedoe]

The tooling is unique for each boot.
So the freetour of different than RS 130

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using TGR Forums mobile app

True. But the skills to design and build an entirely different kind of boot I'm guessing are a bit more different than the difference between than say, and RX, an RS, an a Freetour.

I thought back in the rachiele flexon days a lot of ski racers used them?

Sent from my XT1650 using TGR Forums mobile app

Yep. Back in the day they did. Overlap boots have come a long way since those days. But there is a reason that there is no one on them now. If they were equivalent or better, racers would find a way to work around sponsorship to do so.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Because you touch yourself at night

[nickinbc]

I thought back in the rachiele flexon days a lot of ski racers used them?

ISTR mostly speed event specialists. Only remember one technical skier, though she did quite well in them (Vreni Schneider).

[Jonny Snow]

The Flexons used by racers back in the day had various mods including very stiff tounges that would clock in at 12 or 14 on today's full tilt scale. I wouldn't be surprised if they were building some plug style lowers and uppers too, but have never gotten confirmation of it. Bode Miller had some Full Tilts modified with a stiffening plate a couple years back. Seth Morrison's flexons/full tilts have always been customized. Full Tilts are still a dominant boot for mogul skiing and newschool freestyle.

There's nothing technically stopping Full Tilt from offering a beefed up version of the original boot, adding 1-1.5 lbs of plastic to it - thicker base plate, 96-97mm last, stiffer upper (carbon?), oversized 12 flex tongue. Probably can't justify the cost.

My personal boots use an oversized #10 tounge, aftermarket intuition liner, booster straps, a custom full height rigid plastic spoiler, a rigid foam boot board, and proper footbeds. They are about a 140 flex. I have no problem driving the largest, heaviest skis available with them. I'd put them above any conventional 130 flex boot in overall performance, and if I was in an overlap boot it would be a 150 plug slightly softened.

Below you can see Miller adding a spoiler to the lower part of the boot (mine is bolted to the upper), and the lower plates that were added on with the soles planed.

[kootenayskier]

People are shaped and ski differently. For my feet/lower legs and skiing style, nothing compares to the OG Raichle Flexons (now FullTilt Originals). Over 30 years on snow I’m into at least my 10th pair. There is something magical about pushing into that plush forward flex, how it simultaneously engages the sole of your foot into the arch, and allows such subtle “pedal like” control of the front of the ski in 3D snow. I’m no bump skier nor jibber, but I imagine they value similar qualities. Cranking high angle turns on hard snow is a different sport.

[margotron]

There are two conversations going here, one informed by the other. One is why is overlap dominant amongst the public, and the other is which boot skis better.

I think the second question is cleaner despite the answer being "it depends." Depending on ski style and foot shape, one usually just is better for an individual.

Do you need to modulate fore/aft or laterally more in your skiing? Mogul and freestylers prefer 3-piece generally and are constantly controlling the fire/aft plane on un-even snow. Almost 100% of mogul skiers are in 3-piece. Racers apply massive amounts of force to their boots in the lateral plane on smooth snow with comparatively fewer micro adjustments in fore/aft plane.

Add foot shape and it's pretty clear what type of boot you will benefit most from.

I don't even know why you guys debate this stuff. Human nature to take sides I guess. PC vs Mac, defend what you own, etc

Re the public dominance question: same as all sports. Companies make products for pros, people want to ski what their idols wear. The recent rise of full tilt and increased success of dalbello is 99% due to freestyle's rise


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums