Did Fischer get it wrong with compression molding?

[kootenayskier]

There are no technological barriers to a boot manufacturer putting together a comprehensive custom boot system using mix and match components (as per Strolz and Daleboot, but updated and better resourced) with a compatible range of Intuition liners. We don’t have better fitting boots because: seasonal and trend based marketing considerations preventing investment in a multi-year program, a diffuse network of under-resourced retailers with inexperienced staff wouldn’t buy into it, and the current system produces an endless glut of discounted product that works well enough to eliminate demand for and potential profit from any other system.

[CelebratedSkier]

A custom boot mold sounds expensive for the company but with how much people spend on boots, I wouldn't be suprised if companies made it an option. I would probably pay for it and it may be easier than having to go through the process of going to a boot fitter who may or may not fit your boot correctly.

You may also be able to order online making the purchase process cheaper

Make money. Buy toys.

I don't see anybody paying 6 figures for a ski boot... Molds are insanely expensive.

[XavierD]

I don't see anybody paying 6 figures for a ski boot... Molds are insanely expensive.

Right now I think we could get a system which would produce custom molded ski boots at around $7-10k a pair, with a 6 week lead time, if we could get 900-1000 skiers to buy into it on the first season, followed by 5-10% growth for five years with 3% following through the technological lifecycle. Price would hopefully drop to a couple thousand dollars per pair after 3-5 years.

Unfortunately I don’t see this providing a drastically improved fit for the vast majority of skiers while still coming in at in insane marginal cost. As skiing-in-Jackson mentioned, rigid feet are inherently uncomfortable in any compression which is generally desired from a ski boot. This group will undoubtedly be left slightly to extremely dissatisfied with the product they just spent the equivalent to a vacation in Whistler on.
Fortunately for this project, pretty much all of high spend skiers are inherently irrational with their purchases.

Another issue with bootfitting is no one gets rich doing it, so the good people either really love skiing 60 days a year (irrational comment again) or move on to something else. Until we get to the point where the public is comfortable with shops making upwards of $700-1000 per pair sold, bootfitting will remain a job for the irrational and the incompetent.

Vacuum didn’t work for a number of reasons listed throughout this thread. Memory fit and Custom Shell have had better success. However we have also seen Tecnica have success with going the opposite way. Rather than remove the skilled bootfitter with a plug and play system (essentially vacuum fit, custom shell, etc? They have made improvements to the boot which further enable the fitter (CAS, Nordica IR system) to customize the boot. So go see your local irrational or incompetent boot fitter and work with them to find the right fit. Just remember:
“Rigid feet are inherently uncomfortable” -skiing in Jackson
“Custom boot fitting is a lot like backcountry guiding, its expensive, and when your time comes, it’s never quite as good as you read about on the Internet.” - oftpiste

[old goat]

Chasing perfect boot fit reminds of guitar players chasing tone.
Truly custom boots will probably work as well as custom guitars--lots of people order guitars built to their specs by small shops. The problem is that 95% of people don't really know what they need and a lot of them wind up with guitars they hate. Same thing happens when they buy existing guitars/ski boots on line. Best way to buy either is to try them in a shop.

[swissiphic]

everything about soma tec was wrong.

A bit of drift but kinda related...based on my experience back in the day parallel skiing groomers with double leather tele boots and pencil stick skis...which due to flex and play in the boot/binding system, naturally splayed feet into 'duck stance' deeper into the belly of a turn... I think there's something to working with the natural processes of foot mechanics that come into play while walking/running/jumping/flexing etc...

I do recall those turns being super dynamic and tactile and 'alive' due to all the flexing of leather and sole...it was a sensation that led to a much more intimate contact and feel of the snow and the feet feeling simply 'normal'.

I remember switching first to t2 plastic tele boots and eventually back to regular d/h gear after 6 years of tele'ing in cow boots and feeling completely detached from the snow and really missing the intimacy of the tele/leather boot feel. Kinda like driving in a car compared to a riding a road bike.

...that was on smooth surfaces and pow...cow's sucked for icy moguls, chunder and crud for sure. The improvements of control and precision in plastic was drastic.

[Muggydude]

I will say that with my Salomon molded in the vacuum machine:

A, I had to mold twice and ended up with the lowest pressure possible on the forefoot and near highest on the heel.

B, this season when I first got out on them my feet were in agony- cold, numb, which confused me because they had been awesome the past two seasons. Took me 3 days to think to change my socks from the medium-thick ones I had picked up, back to thin. Boom, perfect boots. That tiny bit of compression from the thicker socks was all it took to mess up my feet

[theetruscan]

I don't think a custom boot mold is viable. My understanding is that those blanks for injection molding need to support a ton of pressure, and cost huge amounts (6 digits/size IIRC).

Years back I messed around with trying to figure out how to 3D print a boot (I'm not an expert, just a bored software engineer with time). It seemed like the conclusion above that there are no 3d Printable plastics with the properties needed available is right.

What I wondered about, but lacked the know-how to do, was whether you could make a mold for a size X boot, with a few millimeters of extra space, and 3D print an insert. So, if you used the mold with no inserts, you would injection-mold a boot with, say, 3MM extra thickness.

Basically, if the foot was large all around, print a bolt-on insert for the inside of the mold, if it's small, bolt-on the outside. If the foot had a high instep, narrow ankle, print a partial insert for the inside (raise the instep) and for the outside (narrow the ankle). Would still be super involved, but maybe only expensive, instead of "new house per boot" expensive.

[charles martel]

... As skiing-in-Jackson mentioned, rigid feet are inherently uncomfortable in any compression which is generally desired from a ski boot...

I understand the deductive reasoning behind this statement, but it is not true. I know people who have "rigid" feet and they get fine off the shelf fit with a moderately competant sales person. It has to do with foot shape and the right boot manufacturer and model.

Another point all together. As one who has studied movement and gait analysis with a college professor/ballet dancer who specializes in those things, you are not going to teach those things to retail store staff, even though they are essential to pairing a customer with the right footbeds and boots. (Btw, I am an amateur in those things, even though I used to apply them when I coached alpine and sbx snowboard.)

Sent from my SM-G930T using TGR Forums mobile app

[Gaperious Basterd]

Re: 3D molding a boot... it sounds like the plastic is brittle... so maybe your actual feet could be 3D-printed at the boot factory with a recyclable brittle plastic, and then that could somehow guide manufacture of your custom boots.

Or maybe the mold itself could be 3D printed with recyclable (reusable) material, such that it would be suitable to withstand the temperature of the molten boot plastic being poured in.

...

And yet another problem... in my own experience with the Fischer and Salomon/Atomic plastic: yeah, it gets soft, but not really SOFT and gummy.

So depending on one’s needs, this could make compression molding that much worse, and/or even a non-compression mold fall short of expectations.


The Fischer plastic was very weird. I know a very minimal amount about plastics at the molecular level, and I can only imagine what he composition was (not implying anything by that other than that it was unique and probably very very different from Amy other ski boot plastic, and maybe not the best material for a ski boot, all things considered).

[Crampedon]

I got the first year Fischer Ranger and absolutely love them, 3 seasons, second set of liners and just put new vibram heel and toes on yesterday. When I first got them I had them heated and squeezed a second time after 20 days. I ski better, my feet never ever hurt, they rock.
Rarely do I tinker with the buckles while on th mountain, I can where them all day tight no problem. What more do you want?
I understand now the plastic is better and there are a stiffer version. As a consumer that had spend and endless amount of time with fitters, footbeds and bullshit on previous boots just so they did not hurt,, I'm sold.

[TAFKALVS]

You guys are thinking about this the wrong way.

What I'd love to see is an ala carte approach to the process.

You go in and they give you a 3D scan of the foot. Then the software would tell the boot fitter what boot is the closest fitting upper and lower shell. (accounting for foot length, desired flex, baseline width, etc.) They would then take those shells (which would essentially be a plug with little anatomic fit) and place it in a custom micro CNC machine that would go inside the lower and grind the interior of the shell in the exact way that person's foot requires, taking in to account type of skier, body weight, comfort/performance desires, etc. To adjust flex and stiffness, a separate micro cnc rig would be set up to grind the exterior of the shell. (eliminating the issue of plugs shells being very thick and difficult to put on in the cold.) Further adjustments could be implemented via a boot fitter selecting an appropriate liner, footbed, etc.

Or just go to a legitimately competent boot fitter, trust them through the entire process and probably end up in the same place. Vacuum boots are stupid.

[Bdog325]

Let's just agree that using a 3d scanner can aid in boot fitment

Make money. Buy toys.

[Climber Joe]

I have a super high instep, so when I got my fischer vacuums molded the instep didn't get high enough, and it caused the ankle to bellow out as the lower shell deformed enough to fit around my foot. Unfortunately I also have a low volume ankle, so my ankles suddenly gained the ability to roll inside the boot. I had to throw a zipfit liner in them and add cork to the outside of my ankles to prevent it.

In my opinion the Salomon "zoned" molding is a much better idea. It allows the foot, toebox, and instep to be molded, but not the ankle, the bottom of the boot, and I don't think you can affect the canting and forward lean with the molding either.

One of my vacuum boots got molded somehow with about 5 degrees more canting than the other.

I don't think I will be doing the vacuum molding ever again, but the Fischer boots do fit my foot shape well, so I may just get spot punching and an instep lift instead.

[summit]

Will the scanner consier bony vs meaty feet areas of the foot?

[auvgeek]

Let's just agree that using a 3d scanner can aid in boot fitment

How, within the limits of current technology?

Will the scanner consier bony vs meaty feet areas of the foot?

This is a great point. Bony protrusions can't take nearly as much compression as fleshy areas.

Also: ankle volume would be very hard to estimate with a scanner because people have different amounts of pronation, even with a custom orthotic.

[Cocximus]

What I wondered about, but lacked the know-how to do, was whether you could make a mold for a size X boot, with a few millimeters of extra space, and 3D print an insert. So, if you used the mold with no inserts, you would injection-mold a boot with, say, 3MM extra thickness.

Basically, if the foot was large all around, print a bolt-on insert for the inside of the mold, if it's small, bolt-on the outside. If the foot had a high instep, narrow ankle, print a partial insert for the inside (raise the instep) and for the outside (narrow the ankle). Would still be super involved, but maybe only expensive, instead of "new house per boot" expensive.

This, I thought about that for a long time since I have very low volume heel and low volume arch. That would allow for a proper plastic molded boot, with the customization of 3D scan based printed inserts. Boot fitters do it with foam, but I fucked around with foam for years. It never feels dialed in. Extra foam will either feel too tight in an hour or loose when driving the skis hard. It also has a ridge no matter what, and it's hard to put the liner in. Custom printed inserts plz....

[theetruscan]

Oh, that’s interesting. I was thinking inserts in the mold, unique boot shells.

Inserts in the shells is much easier, and a really neat idea.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Gaperious Basterd]

Will the scanner consier bony vs meaty feet areas of the foot?

It could, if the surface optical image scan were coupled with a bi-plane X-ray image of the foot...

...of course, that would make it tough to do with a smart-phone app, but a station in a shop could do it.

Even also possible would be stepping into a conductive malleable shell, with sensors to pick up excessive electrical activity (nociception/pain stimulus).

Also, there could be devices to measure blood perfusion in the feet before and after being buckled into any given boot, at each buckle tightness. I think (but am not sure) some of the myriad foot discomfort sensations that are experienced in an ill-fitting boot are the direct result of impeding blood flow (as opposed to just pressing on an area with a lot of nociception).


Given that ski boot plastic does not “stretch” like a shoe material when worn/skied in, I am really surprised that several companies are still going the “one size fits all” approach. Many years ago when shoes were like this (and sure, it’s not an apples to apples comparison because shoe materials do stretch), people had to go to cobblers to get their new shoes fit.

[charles martel]

As I've said here and in other threads: it's not about the foot alone. It's about the whole kinetic chain.

Sent from my SM-G930T using TGR Forums mobile app

[swissiphic]

K.I.S.S.

This is all we need, boys and girls. Add a gaitor and battery powered heating and fan; good to go.

Apparently ex world cup canadian ski racers said it was the best skiing 'boot' they've ever tried.