Did Fischer get it wrong with compression molding?

[Gaperious Basterd]

The whole boot industry is moving in direction of moldable shells, but only Fischer still has the compression molding station.

I wonder—assuming that one gets a shell that is small enough (meaning correct size for this)—if really all that is required is stepping in and letting the plastic mold to the weighted foot in boot.

[waxman]

90% of the Fischers I've seen after being molded look "bent" so instead of looking like a normal boot \ and / respectively they look like this ) and ( from the back. Sorry as my keyboard artistry isn't great but hopefully you get the drift?

[Gaperious Basterd]

90% of the Fischers I've seen after being molded look "bent" so instead of looking like a normal boot \ and / respectively they look like this ) and ( from the back. Sorry as my keyboard artistry isn't great but hopefully you get the drift?

Yeah man I understand and agree (the first tuning I noticed about my Vacuum molds)... assumes it was good because maybe it followed the curvature of the lower leg. Maybe not.

But that phenomenon—the ) and ( — is indeed something that probably is only seen with the compression molding.


Going way on a tangent/soapbox here... in an age where your smartphone can take a 360 movie of you in your underwear and deliver a perfect-fitting dress shirt/suit... well, I think the future of boots may be a 3D scan of your foot in various confirmations/states and then literally a custom-molded 3D-printed shell.

[2FUNKY]

^ I'll buy that shit, right fucking now .

[skiing-in-jackson]

Dodge ski boots.

[skiing-in-jackson]

I got Fischer Vacuums early in the game and reviewed them in Powder in ~2011. I skied them over 300 days in three seasons. I wish I could retract everything I said.

Re: compression technology- I’m not prepared to answer on that right now- I’m watching the game. But Soma tech was no good and the Vacuums had (still have) serious durability issues. Paired with crappy liners they were a no go.

Also letting people pick their stance was wrong too. Most skiers seriously overestimated their stance. It was never worth getting in a pseudo argument about stance every time I fitted a boot. It drew a problem customer from the start.

[CelebratedSkier]

Compression will never be the answer. The only way a custom boot will work is "growing" from too small to proper size. Trying to "shrink" a boot is dumb. I've said that about vacuum from the start.

[Bdog325]

Yeah man I understand and agree (the first tuning I noticed about my Vacuum molds)... assumes it was good because maybe it followed the curvature of the lower leg. Maybe not.

But that phenomenon—the ) and ( — is indeed something that probably is only seen with the compression molding.


Going way on a tangent/soapbox here... in an age where your smartphone can take a 360 movie of you in your underwear and deliver a perfect-fitting dress shirt/suit... well, I think the future of boots may be a 3D scan of your foot in various confirmations/states and then literally a custom-molded 3D-printed shell.

Following up on your 3d scanning idea, it's possible and I don't know why we don't have it yet. Hell, you can buy 3d scanners right now, scan an object, upload the file to your computer and then hit print and you can 3d print an exact replica of the scanned object. The tech is there. Someone just needs to learn the tech and apply it. Any engineers?

Make money. Buy toys.

[swissiphic]

Re: scan yer foot and create a custom boot:

A few years ago I found a patent for Stephen Drake with this concept as the intention. I figure the forethcoming DPS boot will be based on it but who really knows?

https://www.google.com/patents/US20080104778

[LeoK]

https://www.tailored-fits.com/en/news/

there are already 3D printed liners available and they are working on the shells. I see some potential not only for the fit but also for the flex adjusted to the skier / areas of different flex across the boot and such...

[gregL]

Following up on your 3d scanning idea, it's possible and I don't know why we don't have it yet.

I've seen prototype boots that were 3D printed. The problem is that plastics with the right characteristics for ski boot shells won't go through the printers yet. The examples I've seen looked like ski boots with tiny ridges along the contours but were so rock hard you could barely get a foot in.

[auvgeek]

The problem is that plastics with the right characteristics for ski boot shells won't go through the printers yet. The examples I've seen looked like ski boots with tiny ridges along the contours but were so rock hard you could barely get a foot in.

Came here to post this.

I'm no materials engineer, but my understanding/experience is that the current 3D printed plastics are quite brittle. The plastics used in ski boots are formulated specifically for the stiffness, rebound, and dampening characteristics that are inherently at odds with the 3D printing process. Not saying we won't get there, but I'd be pretty surprised if it was much before a decade.

[Bdog325]

I've seen prototype boots that were 3D printed. The problem is that plastics with the right characteristics for ski boot shells won't go through the printers yet. The examples I've seen looked like ski boots with tiny ridges along the contours but were so rock hard you could barely get a foot in.

Came here to post this.

I'm no materials engineer, but my understanding/experience is that the current 3D printed plastics are quite brittle. The plastics used in ski boots are formulated specifically for the stiffness, rebound, and dampening characteristics that are inherently at odds with the 3D printing process. Not saying we won't get there, but I'd be pretty surprised if it was much before a decade.

I wouldn't use the current plastic but you could use the 3d scan file to make a mold to create the boot which would be more accurate. Current 3d printing materials aren't up to par for industry standards quite yet

Make money. Buy toys.

[auvgeek]

you could use the 3d scan file to make a mold to create the boot which would be more accurate.

Are you suggesting a custom boot mold for each person, or are you suggesting companies scan a whole bunch of feet and somehow average across them to make a more anatomical mold?

[Bdog325]

Are you suggesting a custom boot mold for each person, or are you suggesting companies scan a whole bunch of feet and somehow average across them to make a more anatomical mold?

A custom boot mold sounds expensive for the company but with how much people spend on boots, I wouldn't be suprised if companies made it an option. I would probably pay for it and it may be easier than having to go through the process of going to a boot fitter who may or may not fit your boot correctly.

You may also be able to order online making the purchase process cheaper

Make money. Buy toys.

[Muggydude]

I wouldn't say Fischer tries to "shrink" boots, rather it more just prevents them from expanding in the wrong places? I'd say a proper Fischer fit would be a slightly small boot before molding as well.

I stuck my Salomon X-Pros in the Fischer vacuum machine and couldn't be happier. Expanded where I needed (106mm last, but maintained a super snug and close fit everywhere). Biggest thing was keeping the heel hold, which I feel without the pressure would definitely be less if you just mold the boots and let them expand.

Makes them very responsive, and comfortable. Fischer's boots might not hit the right notes, but I think the process makes sense

Also, 3D printed boots are a decent way off, although as mentioned the biggest hurdle is just finding a good plastic that can be printed, probably with a method along the lines of stereolithography. Making a mold for each boot would be crazy expensive and more or less impossible IMO. Tooling, time, materials involved would not work

[smartyiak]

I stuck my Salomon X-Pros in the Fischer vacuum machine and couldn't be happier. Expanded where I needed (106mm last, but maintained a super snug and close fit everywhere). Biggest thing was keeping the heel hold, which I feel without the pressure would definitely be less if you just mold the boots and let them expand.

When I got my X-Max's, the fitter used the Fischer machine to mold the shells. Worked great and fit is perfect.

[skiing-in-jackson]

Re: compression molding

Over simpilfying things a bit here....

Feet come in two types: flexible and comfortable and rigid and uncomfortable

With a flexible foot: The problem with pressurized molding is that the tightest fits usually compress the foot rather than the foot pushing out the hot shell. The higher the pressure setting on the Fischer machine, the more likely the foot will compress (change shape) and not push out the boot. The foot doesn’t have enough structure or form to adequately hold its form under pressure.

With a rigid foot: compression is only going to make the foot more uncomfortable than it is already. The shell is going to be pushing the foot into an incorrect position. Rigid feet are almost always uncomfortable. There are few exceptions. Pressure molding never helped.

I had the highest degree of success when I cooked an Intuition liner simultaneously as the Fischer Vacuum shell and then paired them in the “vacuum” process. That worked pretty well. However stronger skiers would rip out cuff buckles & ankle hardware within afew weeks time. The Intuition liner gave the boot more structure than the shell could handle. The Vacuum liner had to be mushy to allow the shell to compress. Multiple cooks took the life out of the liner and left it beat.

Also, it got to the point where every pair that went out the door came in for numerous refits/recooks. I was scared to take it off the shelf- just about every pair sold came back in. Getting them remolded numerous times was the par for the course for semantic skiers. The boot was sold with the tag line “ remold as many times as you wish”. Boy there were some ‘schoolers that really took this seriously.

Again, most skiers greatly overestimate the width of their stance. “Are you sure your stance is that wide?” Some dudes would stand on the machine and look a wrestler on the mat. “There is no way your feet are that apart”, I’d say. Then came the obligatory remold- sometimes three or four times.

Too bad for Fischer, because I sure love their skis. Also- everything about SOMA Tech was wrong.

I had the card of the Fischer Exec VP in charge of the boot. A few months into realizing all of this I sent him a letter explaining all of my experiences. I got a “ yeah right whatever” answer from the guy.

[johnnyg82]

Funny enough, I saw this video last week, it looks like Fischer is trying to improve the vacuum system some more:

[mntlion]

Re: compression molding

Over simpilfying things a bit here....

Feet come in two types: flexible and comfortable and rigid and uncomfortable

With a flexible foot: The problem with pressurized molding is that the tightest fits usually compress the foot rather than the foot pushing out the hot shell. The higher the pressure setting on the Fischer machine, the more likely the foot will compress (change shape) and not push out the boot. The foot doesn’t have enough structure or form to adequately hold its form under pressure.

With a rigid foot: compression is only going to make the foot more uncomfortable than it is already. The shell is going to be pushing the foot into an incorrect position. Rigid feet are almost always uncomfortable. There are few exceptions. Pressure molding never helped.

I had the highest degree of success when I cooked an Intuition liner simultaneously as the Fischer Vacuum shell and then paired them in the “vacuum” process. That worked pretty well. However stronger skiers would rip out cuff buckles & ankle hardware within afew weeks time. The Intuition liner gave the boot more structure than the shell could handle. The Vacuum liner had to be mushy to allow the shell to compress. Multiple cooks took the life out of the liner and left it beat.

Also, it got to the point where every pair that went out the door came in for numerous refits/recooks. I was scared to take it off the shelf- just about every pair sold came back in. Getting them remolded numerous times was the par for the course for semantic skiers. The boot was sold with the tag line “ remold as many times as you wish”. Boy there were some ‘schoolers that really took this seriously.

Again, most skiers greatly overestimate the width of their stance. “Are you sure your stance is that wide?” Some dudes would stand on the machine and look a wrestler on the mat. “There is no way your feet are that apart”, I’d say. Then came the obligatory remold- sometimes three or four times.

Too bad for Fischer, because I sure love their skis. Also- everything about SOMA Tech was wrong.

I had the card of the Fischer Exec VP in charge of the boot. A few months into realizing all of this I sent him a letter explaining all of my experiences. I got a “ yeah right whatever” answer from the guy.

Ya, good idea (nice to see some change in the industry) but Fischer put a LOT of time, effort and marketing into all this, and its hard to let it die.

The plastic was not great (but needed to be soft to mold, but not burn)

the clients that wanted this where told it was a magic unicorn bullet (nothing is, except a redheads in lingerie)

I have seen some good/better results with the fischer machine and NON-fischer boot (maybe becuase the plastic is a bit stiffer, maybe becuase the skier is not drinking the koolaid)

[waxman]

Are you suggesting a custom boot mold for each person, or are you suggesting companies scan a whole bunch of feet and somehow average across them to make a more anatomical mold?

If you go to Lange in Montebeluna(sp) you can have your lower leg scanned which goes into the database putting all the scans into a database which IIRC splits them into three "volumes" which is where the 97/100/102mm last came from in the civilian boots. At one point they were claiming 7,000 scans probably way more now.

[fcetoface]

Funny enough, I saw this video last week, it looks like Fischer is trying to improve the vacuum system some more:

Their 360 foot scan only works with the foot fully weighted....

[Gaperious Basterd]

Re: skiing-in-Jackson’s comment on the compression for flexible feet; yeah, each time I got done with a molding my feet were numb, and then began to tingle (in the really uncomfortable painful way like if you sleep on your arm). It makes sense what you say (and I’ve began to think the same thing); if the compression mold has pushed in on your foot to point of numbness, then that totally takes away the point of the boot.

Before a bootfitter (who sells Fischer boots) did a spot-punch, my forefoot could never fully just relax out. During skiing this caused numbness and pain.

Having said all that, I do admit that the first time I skied in my Vacuums after I got my first molding, it was quite amazing... so that caused me to chase not only the idea that the fit was/could be perfect, but also the kind of performance feeling I got that first time out.

My first year the latter actually created PERFORMANCE obsession and caused me to go back to the Vacuum station twice just to chase skiing performance.

For one reason or the other that settled down (chasing performance) and borderline extreme (relatively speaking) foot pain on just a two-day spring trip shifted my attention to comfort.

I enjoyed 5.5 seasons in the boot, but it is time for me to move on, given the time and energy involved.


Other random comment on the future of boots: since it’s been amd is looking like HEAT-molding shells and liners is the answer (which is fine), the industry is going to have to figure out how to make retail-scaleable custom-footbed systems that—even if they initially use heat to mold—are irreversibly permanently molded when done.

It’s just my humble opinion from my own experience, but just leaving the footbed out and then putting it back into a scorching hot liner fir molding is possibly going to totally ruin the footbed. I had this happen twice.

The only thing I can think is to put in a pre-frozen blank footbed into the liner while in the oven (to mitigate warming of that part of the liner, and then also pre-freezing your custom footbed and putting that into the hot liner, and hoping for the best.

[XavierD]

Re: compression molding

Over simpilfying things a bit here....

Feet come in two types: flexible and comfortable and rigid and uncomfortable

Rigid feet are almost always uncomfortable. There are few exceptions.

I just wanted to quote this and say the boots also skied like shit because the plastic was soft.

They are starting to work away from the system with Powered By Vacuum (denoted PBV in catalog) and boots that are non vacuum such as the pretty impressive Fischer Ranger Free.

[charles martel]

This is a great discussion.

I spoke with a long-time western shop owner right after these compression Fischers came out. He was sold on them. Said he was at the Las Vegas show and saw several people molded to the correct fit and cant in a few minutes.

That said, this should have taken off, but it didn't.

Maybe all the shortcoming pointed out in this thread held vacuum tech back. Maybe getting new old stock on line fit better with the new economy. (I bought NIB three year old Dalbellos for 160, retail 600.)

Maybe, too, fit is more difficult than just molding to shape. A millimeter is a mile in boot fitting. Everone is assymmetrical left/right, which makes fitting and canting very difficult and a lot of fitters who do it are fucking retards.

There is the whole issue of footbeds and posting, as many fitters do, way too high. A functional flat foot, which a lot of people have, needs less support and room for the foot/ankle to move. (I had a fitter post the shit out of my feet with a smile saying that this is how my feet should be arched according to the text book. With those footbeds, besides the pain, my feet did not work. Heel and forefoot contact and weighting was non-existant.)

Finally, the major rivets need to be at the level of ankle flex, which most bootfitters know nothing about.

I'm curious to see where all this one comprehensive molding will go as technology and manufacturing change.

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