Noob questions about midlayers + shells

[burrito]

I’ve been rocking a piecemeal outerwear collection for the last few seasons and would like to upgrade to a proper midlayer and shell combo. Right now I rotate between a a couple middling medium weight jackets (a lifestyle jacket only suitable for dry days and an older softshell hoodie) and a full 20k/20k insulated jacket that’s so warm it’s pretty much relegated to very wet and/or very cold days (generally never above 20*F.) The one hardshell I own is heavy and bulky and sucks to pack even for single-day tours, which I’m doing more and more of lately. Plus it’s a leftover from my teenage park rat days, so it’s baggy and green/brown plaid. Not really my style anymore.

Having never owned a real layered setup, I have a couple of questions:


1. I spend most of my time riding in California, which can be pretty wet. Am I right to think a hardshell is the best option there?

2. Do you guys have a quiver of midlayers? Something like a Patagonia Nano or Micropuff seems suitable for most temperatures, but I feel like they’re not warm enough for those single or negative digit mornings. Thoughts?


Thanks for the advice.

[cpj.slc]

I ski in Utah, so my advice will be skewed towards much drier conditions.

1) Yeah, I would suggest a hard shell. I have a Fly Low Lab which is pretty awesome in that it is light weight, but also is great in a storm. It is my do everything jacket and I wear it all season/ all conditions.

2) Yes, I have a bunch of mid layers to go under it based on the weather. I have a Patagonia down sweater for cold days. Typically I wear a old school merino wool ski sweater I picked up on SAC for cheap. I bought it to wear to ugly sweater parties, but it was really warm and regulated my temp well, so I thought I would try it out skiing. It has been amazing. On warm days, I wear a Fly Low Handle Bar flannel shirt (it is like 10% wool and the rest polyester). So three options that cover the gamut for Utah skiing.

Hope that helps, good luck.

[gregL]

1. I spend most of my time riding in California, which can be pretty wet. Am I right to think a hardshell is the best option there?

Probably. I live in the PNW and the bar for "waterproofness" is way higher than when I lived in the Rockies. For the most part, you get what you pay for - I am a fan of 3L GORE-TEX Pro shells.

2. Do you guys have a quiver of midlayers? Something like a Patagonia Nano or Micropuff seems suitable for most temperatures, but I feel like they’re not warm enough for those single or negative digit mornings. Thoughts?

Yes. I've got a light synthetic puffy, a light down puffy, and a heavier down puffy and use them all depending on conditions.

[auvgeek]

First, are we talking about riding lifts or touring or both?

[burrito]

First, are we talking about riding lifts or touring or both?

Both. Resorts and lifts are still in the majority right now, but a 50/50 split is not unlikely by next season.

[auvgeek]

Okay, so I've tried a fair number of systems, and find the following works very well:

- UL (like 150 g/m^2) merino tee (buy on sale from Icebreaker, Smartwool, etc)
- Semi-permeable vapor barrier next to skin (i.e., no merino base) for touring when it's <~30F, especially if it's precipitating. Warmer than that, and I just skin in a merino tee.
- Light 3L Gore Pro shell (just buy whatever fits and is on sale)
- UL down puffy for cold days -- Montbell Mirage FTW

I'd wear the insulated hardshell you already own for inbounds whenever possible, often with just a merino tee under it. It's easier to regulate temperature with an insulated hardshell and tee-- just open it to dump heat -- than a synthetic midlayer and hardshell. Plus, it will extend the life of your lighter shell for touring.

I own a Rab Xenon synthetic midlayer that I rarely use for touring because it weighs the same as the Mirage but isn't nearly as warm. My 3L shell is sized so I can fit the Mirage under it to keep the Mirage dry if necessary, but the Mirage isn't really a midlayer and most of the time, I prefer to put it on over what I'm wearing. Personally, I've found I don't really need a midlayer or a softshell* anymore. YMMV.

*Though I do kind of want a Norrona lofoten powershield pro alpha to bring instead of the 3L shell for the ski down when touring in cold, dry places.

[LightRanger]

My $.02 as a CA inbounds and BC skier:
Inbounds-
1. Thin Merino base
2. Patagonia R1 or equivalent
3. 3L GoreTex
(4.) For the occasional really cold days, I'll add either my MH Nitrous Jacket or Patagonia Nanopuff vest.

Touring-
1. Thin merino.
(2. R1, optional based on temps and season)
3. BD Dawn Patrol softshell (used to used an Arc'Teryx Gamma MX hoody, but found that the fleecy laminate didn't breathe well enough, and I don't run hot/sweaty.)
4. Dynafit Down Hoody for transitions/lunchbreaks if I need it.

If it's nuclear out, I'll tour in GoreTex when needed.

[GBB]

My $.02 as a CA inbounds and BC skier:
Inbounds-
1. Thin Merino base
2. Patagonia R1 or equivalent
3. 3L GoreTex
(4.) For the occasional really cold days, Patagonia Nanopuff vest.

This is the exact setup I run as CA based skier. It's dialed perfectly.

[whyturn]

One merino close to skin of varying weight based on temp and fleece and Shell. If really cold two merino and I do have 200 and 300 weight polartec high loft fleece.

[burrito]

One merino close to skin of varying weight based on temp and fleece and Shell. If really cold two merino and I do have 200 and 300 weight polartec high loft fleece.

Interesting. You never feel like you need a full-blown down or synthetic midlayer?

Thank you, by the way, for all of the other answers. They've all been super helpful.

[auvgeek]

This is the exact setup I run as CA based skier. It's dialed perfectly.

This is exact setup I used to run before Old/Big/DIY Steve convinced me to try a next-to-skin semi-permeable vapor barrier, and it works way better. Have you tried it?

burrito: I will never give up a down puffy for touring. It comes in handy in so many situation for only 12 oz in the pack. Especially useful if you have to wait at the top of a line for the snow to soften a bit before skiing down.

[zion zig zag]

I don't tour in merino (gets too wet if/when I sweat)

Agreed

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I've got a new layering system for touring in CO this year:

Softshell pants with vents (no membrane).
Choose base layers based on temps and wind (sometimes no bottoms).
Hooded windbreaker.
I occasionally take the windbreaker off.
I occasionally throw an oversized synthetic puffy over the windbreaker.
Mostly I just wear the windbreaker.

That's it. Skied four laps at Berthoud today and I never added or removed a layer. Haven't put on a hardshell or softshell top yet this year, although I leave a 9oz. hardshell in the bottom of my pack.

Keys to this are: 1) Pick your base layers wisely. 2) Have smaller gloves and hat you can easily tuck into pockets for adjusting temps on the move.

Probably won't work if you run cold, or expect to feel toasty at all times.

[burrito]

Any opinions on North Face Ventrix vs Black Diamond Access as a midlayer? I have access to a decent deal on either.

[pfluffenmeister]

I run cold and ski inbounds, but this kit is dialed:

1) Merino oney hooded (150g)
2) MH Desna hooded (Polartec "fleece")
3) Synthetic insulating layer based on temps (50g BD Vest, 50g Montbell jacket, 100g(arms) 150g(torso/hood) Arc Proton jacket)
4) Soft shell (Arc Stingray; stellar ski shell)

Hoods on 1 &2 fit very comfortably under the helmet if desired.

[sk8rat6587]

My $.02 as a CA inbounds and BC skier:
Inbounds-
1. Thin Merino base
2. Patagonia R1 or equivalent
3. 3L GoreTex
(4.) For the occasional really cold days, I'll add either my MH Nitrous Jacket or Patagonia Nanopuff vest.

Yep, different brands here, but same setup. It works pretty much anywhere. I think the R1/equivalent polartec power grid is the key. Such a versatile layer.

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

[AK47bp]

PNW skier.

Patagonia Capilene 1 against the skin.

First Ascent fleece

Burton AK Gore-Tex shell.

Perfect for 90% of all PNW conditions from December to late March.

Just got my first Gore-Tex Pro pants and holy shit that stuff is awesome. Skied 3 days in the rain last weekend, 5 hours each day. Came out dry as my grannies coochie.

[shroom]

PNW

R1 next to skin
gore pro/3L shell over

soft shell shorts over undies
gore pro/3L shell pants

cold/wet i’ll start with 1/2 or 3/4 length under armour or whatever top & bottom

[kootenayskier]

BC Interior.

Inbounds:
Merino onesie base-layer.
Fleece pants and jacket (various weights depending on the temp).
Waterproof breathable shell (onesie or jacket/pant combo depending on the snow).

Touring:
Merino onesie base-layer, adding and removing the hood (under my helmet) provides temperature regulation.
Windstopper soft-shell pants and jacket, almost all I ever need while ascending.
Active insulation vest, to add warmth whenever.
Patagonia Nano Storm Active/puffy/shell combo jacket, for touring in cold temps, during transitions, and while skiing down.

Most gear is adequate whenever it’s not snowing, but staying dry during backcountry laps while it’s dumping at mild temps is my biggest (and fortunately regular) challenge. I’ve tried endless combinations, but body hugging wind-stopper soft shell (Salomon XC jacket) seems to provide the best balance of breathability, resistance to soaking through and wetting out, and responsiveness to drying from body heat. Power shield pro also worked ok, but loose fitting jackets (Patagonia Knifeblade) don’t dry as well. The Nano Storm jacket completes the system, as I can quickly throw its over the top and it’ll function as an active mid-layer, a puffy, a shell, or a combination of these, it’ll dry from body heat when snow camping, and only the excessively baggy fit and ridiculous hood configuration bothers me.

[burrito]

Now thinking Arc’teryx Atom LT or Proton LT for midlayer with BD Helio or Flylow Genius as a shell.

[doebedoe]

My $.02 as a CA inbounds and BC skier:
Inbounds-
1. Thin Merino base
2. Patagonia R1 or equivalent
3. 3L GoreTex
(4.) For the occasional really cold days, I'll add either my MH Nitrous Jacket or Patagonia Nanopuff vest.

Touring-
1. Thin merino.
(2. R1, optional based on temps and season)
3. BD Dawn Patrol softshell (used to used an Arc'Teryx Gamma MX hoody, but found that the fleecy laminate didn't breathe well enough, and I don't run hot/sweaty.)
4. Dynafit Down Hoody for transitions/lunchbreaks if I need it.

If it's nuclear out, I'll tour in GoreTex when needed.

This is very similar to my setups and I've been really liking it.

Inbounds:
1. Base. I've got various from capiliene to cheap ass poly pro to merino.
2. Grid Fleece, specifically Bross Hoody from FreeRide Systems.
3. Polartec NeoShell. Also FreeRide Systems. I like things with a bit more stretch / durability feeling than my old 3L GoreTex Pro for inbounds.

Swap Patagonia Nano Air in for the grid fleece for <15F

Touring:
1. Base.
(2. If cold cold, grid fleece.)
3. Softshell. I have some Marmot Powershield thing from a while back I got from the bay for like $40 in new condition.
4. Big puffy that compresses small and only for hanging out.

[auvgeek]

I am very curious about this, any example brand/model to point me to?

I followed up via PM, but for everyone:

Old Steve (the VB guru -- you can search for his many detailed posts on this topic) recommended the Mountain Hardware Effusion Hoody for 10F-40F and the Transition Hoody for lower temps. I bought both and he hit the nail on the head (IMO), but both are now discontinued*. I'm not sure what to recommend since I haven't personally tried the new stuff, but my guess is the Mountain Hardware Quasar Lite II would do pretty well but it may breathe too well to really act as a semi-VB.

The semi-VB is worn next to skin (i.e., no merino layer**) and temp regulation is done via venting the front zipper and adding/removing the hood. I can't reiterate how much better and simpler this system is than baselayer + R1 + synthetic midlayer. Don't knock it till you've tried both ways. ISBD's baselayer + windbreaker system seems like a very similar approach but in two layers rather than one.


*eBay has the Effusion Hoody in L & XL: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mens-Mounta...rd!21218!US!-1
**I sometimes carry a lwt merino tee in the pack if it looks like the sun might come out and warm things up substantially.

[N1CK.]

Now thinking Arc’teryx Atom LT or Proton LT for midlayer with BD Helio or Flylow Genius as a shell.

I had an Atom and sold it. I didn't think was breathed well, and often overheated.

Yesterday was cold and I used a lightweight capeline shirt, Patagooch nanopuff and my FRS Antero II Plus hardshell. It was perfect all day, never cold, never too warm.

Correction- not nano puff, nano air. Not sure how much they differ.

[burrito]

I had an Atom and sold it. I didn't think was breathed well, and often overheated.

Oh interesting. I’ll look into that. I guess a North Fave Ventrix is still in the running. I just don’t generally like their stuff.

[auvgeek]

I had an Atom and sold it. I didn't think was breathed well, and often overheated.

I agree that the Atom LT is outdated now -- it doesn't block wind especially well and it doesn't breathe especially well. There are better options for active insulation, and there are many pieces with higher warmth/weight ratio (obviously at the expense of breathability). The real question in choosing an insulating layer is whether you expect to wear it while moving or not.