DHF DD vs Exo?

[sethschmautz]

Looks like I prolly killed my DHF and am looking to replace it. I'm currently riding the Exo version and have not had any issues. However, I'm a bit intrigued by the comments about being able to run the DD casing at lower PSI. If I'm not having any problems currently running Exo, it doesn't seem like I'd benefit much from the extra durability of the DD casing, so the only real advantage would be running lower PSI.

Am I missing something? Running Dunfee's old Minion SS Exo on the rear.

Seth

[smmokan]

On the front? I wouldn't bother with Double Down, unless you weigh three bills and ride super hard with your front fork locked out. The EXO casing is more than enough for 99.9% of the riders out there.

[toast2266]

What pressure are you running with the EXO? Way too many people regard super low tire pressures as some sort of holy grail. That doesn't make any sense to me - you have to run a heavy ass tire to avoid cutting it, the tires roll over in corners, and they're slow. You get a little more traction here and there, but decent technique and suspension that's setup correctly gets you to more or less the same place.

More to the point: if you're not having durability issues with the Exo, don't bump up to a heavier casing.

[Anospa]

Its a significant enough weight difference that you'll notice the change. Depending on what your trails are like, it may last longer.

[bagtagley]

The EXO casing is more than enough for 99.9% of the riders out there.

Woohoo! 1 percenter bitchasses!

More to the point: if you're not having durability issues with the Exo, don't bump up to a heavier casing.

This. I flat the fuck out of some EXO tires, but still run them cause I don't want the weight of DD on my XC bike, and I'm an idiot.

[sethschmautz]

Thanks for the input. I'm about 190 w/o gear and running about 25-26 in the front (26-27 in the rear). I haven't spent a lot of time dialing in my tire pressure, to be honest, so I may be able to reduce a little. In the past I've just lowered the pressure until it started folding on corners, then pumped it back up 1-2 PSI. I haven't actually gone through that procedure with these.

Toast, this is your DHF that I damaged. Any other good front tires in your garage just wasting away you want to sell or trade for beer? I need to go back through your list of recommendations to see what else you suggested. I have really loved the traction provided by the DHF.

Seth

[John_B]

FYI Jenson is having a 30% off sale on Maxxis tires right now.

[creaky fossil]

I wouldn't put a DD on the front unless I was doing a DH race on a trail bike. I've run EXO front forever, w/o issue, all kinds of terrain.

But I'm old, and slow, and all that stuff. Including lazy.

If you really want a heavy front DHF 29, Seth, I have one w/ DH casing. I've used it for maybe 5-6 rides. I'm not really riding 29s and I don't see any more use for it.

You hit that tree pretty squarely, eh?

[D(C)]

In my experience, heavier tires need lower pressures to not feel overly firm. So it’s not that you can run lower pressures, it’s that you have to run lower pressures.

[jackstraw]

I just bought DHF and DHR EXO in the 2.8. I have the Aggressor now and for a 2.8 the traction sucks when wet, so I pretty much don't ride the 2.8, but with the wet/snow season coming I'm hoping to put the fat tire to use more often.

That was totally off topic I know, so back on topic. I've shredded a couple EXO sidewalls, but for the most part they've held up better than any other tire, but if I was shredding them consistently I'd opt for more weight and a heavier sidewall. It is interesting to note that my first tire the sidewall went quick, my second was bleeding stans out the side in multiple spots for a long time before it blew, and my current tire is still going strong and I'll need to replace because the knobbies are wearing out. The two previous tires the knobs were practically new looking.

The 60 vs 120 tpi thing is a factor in sidewall durability. 60 being thicker and 120 being thinner but more flexy and lighter. So which one is more durable? They say the 60, but won't a 120 conform around stuff a little more and flex before breaking? I'm totally thinking out my ass right now because I have zero education in engineering.

[creaky fossil]

All the 120 tpi casings I've ridden were tires w/ XC treads and there's a big difference in suppleness but none of the tires had enough rubber on the sidewalls to ride anything other than the fabled dirt sidewalk. So I don't really know how the difference plays out in a tire with more heft to the casing.

Example: I had an Aspen 2.1 with 120tpi get a sidewall slice on a rock that had no visible sharp edges. Really great tire for any place w/o roots or rocks!

[sethschmautz]

I wouldn't put a DD on the front unless I was doing a DH race on a trail bike. I've run EXO front forever, w/o issue, all kinds of terrain.

But I'm old, and slow, and all that stuff. Including lazy.

If you really want a heavy front DHF 29, Seth, I have one w/ DH casing. I've used it for maybe 5-6 rides. I'm not really riding 29s and I don't see any more use for it.

You hit that tree pretty squarely, eh?

Hey Creaky,

Thanks for the offer - I'm sure I could put that tire to use at some point on some bike, but if anybody closer to you has need, feel free to go that route. I'll probably still order an Exo version. What width?

Yeah, hit really squarely, but it seems my body is worse off than my wheel. Have a very large bruise on my left hip and two bruises under each knee on the inside of my thighs. Not sure where those came from - hitting the handlebars on the way over?

Seth

[beaterdit]

My understanding is that EXO have 1.5 plys of 60 tpi whereas the DD have 2.5 plys of 120 TPI. They definitely feel stiffer than EXO in the sidewall so I imagine you'd want to run a bit less pressure to get the same feel. They also probably stand up to that lower pressure better.

Personally, I do fine in highish speed rocky stuff with EXO casings at low pressure, 22/25. I'm light though, about 150 with gear. I do try to pay attention to the bigger, sharper ones but end up hitting plenty. End up flatting once or twice/year. My friends who are bigger and faster than me shred EXOs pretty quick and consider DD mandatory in back and preferred in front. They're also stronger than me though and don't mind the extra weight, it is a pretty big difference.

Sounds like this is an isolated incident with EXOs for you and you really haven't had problems thus far. I'd stick with them, especially if you're mostly on dirt or more forgiving surfaces. You'd definitely notice the extra weight of the DD. Also, Unless the tire's REALLY lightly used, I always say it's worth it to spend the money on NEW rubber, especially in front. I have a pretty low threshold for rotating tires to the back when they lose their edge.

[toast2266]

My understanding is that EXO have 1.5 plys of 60 tpi whereas the DD have 2.5 plys of 120 TPI.

DD is 2 layers of 120 tpi, but it also gets a butyl insert like the DH tires (although I believe the butyl insert on the DH tires is taller). I think a lot of the stiffness and extra weight comes from the butyl insert.

[creaky fossil]

Hey Creaky,

Thanks for the offer - I'm sure I could put that tire to use at some point on some bike, but if anybody closer to you has need, feel free to go that route. I'll probably still order an Exo version. What width?

Yeah, hit really squarely, but it seems my body is worse off than my wheel. Have a very large bruise on my left hip and two bruises under each knee on the inside of my thighs. Not sure where those came from - hitting the handlebars on the way over?

Seth

All,

It's a 29x2.5. One of my 5-6 rides tally on the tire was actually a friend who wanted to try the thing in place of the Ardent 2.25 he was using. His verdict: "No way do I want to pedal this thing around again, no matter how good the traction." He returned it quickly.

Bruises -- stem or top tube if it's symmetric like that.

*************

In the 00s, Maxxis had a "Freeride" casing that was 1.5 ply (tpi unknown). When EXO came out it was a little flimsier than the old FR casing. Apparently the lightweight XC influence was at work. Since it's played out to be a bit weak under certain riders, that's where DD comes in. They could've introduced a DD style casing originally instead of EXO but probably feared gram-counters rejecting it w/o trying it.

[beaterdit]

DD is 2 layers of 120 tpi, but it also gets a butyl insert like the DH tires (although I believe the butyl insert on the DH tires is taller). I think a lot of the stiffness and extra weight comes from the butyl insert.

OK that makes sense.

[rideit]

beatered...weren't you rocking e-13's when I ran into you on Hymasa? What did you think of those?

[jackstraw]

DD is 2 layers of 120 tpi, but it also gets a butyl insert like the DH tires (although I believe the butyl insert on the DH tires is taller). I think a lot of the stiffness and extra weight comes from the butyl insert.

Had to look that up.

What are Butyl Inserts?

Answer

Butyl inserts are pieces of butyl rubber wrapped around and placed in between the two overlapped 60 tpi layers, midway through the sidewall in our 2-ply casings. The inserts add strength to the sidewall and add stability to resist pinch flats.

http://www.maxxis.com/other-bicycle-...n/bicycle-faqs

[Jonny Snow]

I just bought DHF and DHR EXO in the 2.8. I have the Aggressor now and for a 2.8 the traction sucks when wet, so I pretty much don't ride the 2.8, but with the wet/snow season coming I'm hoping to put the fat tire to use more often.

If you want real traction in the wet, you need to run a supertacky or 3C maxxgrip in the front, with a 3c maxxterra in the rear.

Plus tires don't do anything in the wet. Normal tires in a soft compound are far better.

[jackstraw]

If you want real traction in the wet, you need to run a supertacky or 3C maxxgrip in the front, with a 3c maxxterra in the rear.

Plus tires don't do anything in the wet. Normal tires in a soft compound are far better.

That is what I'm running you jong. And to clarify, the others do not shed mud and debris like the DHR and DHF, so when you hit a tech granite line you have no traction with the Aggressor.

2.8 or the 4.0 are much better for limiting erosion when it's wet or mixed snow/mud season.

[Jonny Snow]

That is what I'm running you jong. And to clarify, the others do not shed mud and debris like the DHR and DHF, so when you hit a tech granite line you have no traction with the Aggressor.

2.8 or the 4.0 are much better for limiting erosion when it's wet or mixed snow/mud season.

What EXACTLY are you running right now? I highly doubt you have a super tacky or maxx grip front tire.

What Plus+ Minions did you buy, EXACTLY?

Everybody knows the Aggressor is not a wet weather tire. It's only available in 2.3" and DC compound, and has a tight pattern.

The minon's are okish in the wet without too much soft, but a true soft compound will make up for the pattern being too tight.

Alternatively, you could try a Shorty, which is a wet conditions tire, but that would make too much sense. Shorty's are also good for loose over hard, like leaves and pine needles you would find in the fall or spring.

[grinch]

OP- sounds like the dhf exo is working for you apart from that one occasion. I'd say stick with it. DD dhf is also good but it adds a lot of weight. Exo is 850g and dd is 1170. Sounds like you have your psi dialed in to what works. Put a gauge on them and stick with that. I alter mine a couple lbs either way depending on the trails I'm on. If you want more protection, a huck Norris tire liner is a cheap addition that has paid its way for me. It's saved my rims and tires multiple times and only adds 100g
On another note , it's funny maxxis only puts butyl on the sidewalls. Most of the tire pinching is across the top in the tread casing now

[Jonny Snow]

Double Down DHF and Shorty in 3C Maxx Grip:

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/shorty...ron-video.html

The DHF Maxx Grip is also available in EXO. The Shorty and DHF/DHR2 are also available in a wide range of 3C Max Terra and EXO or DD if you're not quite as rad.

[beaterdit]

beatered...weren't you rocking e-13's when I ran into you on Hymasa? What did you think of those?

Those tires have amazing climbing traction, they're comparable to Minions in the corners and they're really tough. They roll SLOW though! Lot of work to keep them spinning. I knew they were slow but it was really noticeable when I got back on Minions, even the 2.6s I'm on now.

[westoxified]

DHFs aren’t the only tire out there. Check out the better options like the Rockr advanced Magix or SE5s or Butcher Grids (not the new grid with the stair knob, the old grid).