Clarification: Phantom applied, skied them 30 days then had them ground then skied more. I hope that clears it up
If someone is in Tahoe and wants to ski these, you are welcome to.
Clarification: Phantom applied, skied them 30 days then had them ground then skied more. I hope that clears it up
If someone is in Tahoe and wants to ski these, you are welcome to.
Click. Point. Chute.
If epoxy is so slick, why wouldn't they just make bases out of epoxy (with maybe some additive/aggregate to make it less brittle)? Bases would be tougher, and presumably no wax required (if your "guess" is correct).
And...what kind of epoxy could possibly permeate the entire thickness of a ptex base?
My guess is: your guess is off.
This stuff seems promising, for sure. But it needs to be like 1/3 the price - I assume the margin is beefy, and I bet they could profit more by selling a whole lot more of it. For $90 this shit should be one-and-done (i.e. no need ever for a base grind, supplemental wax, etc.), otherwise the long-term cost approaches the ridiculous, vs just waxing (ok it saves the effort of waxing, but bringing skis into a shop for a grind, waiting, and having to pick them up seems like more effort, that I'm just as likely to blow off as simple waxing).
AFA "...I go fast without it,"...not on a -15F day you don't (especially on the flats). Warm, sunny, wet-snow spring days without wax are no picnic either. Could never understand people who insist they *never* wax - most days you can get away with it, but some days are ruined.
Has anyone tried to use a UV light to cure? I've read the instructions and the FAQ that does not endorse this, and I emailed DPS looking for guidance, basically getting the "we can't guarantee..." response. I heard they are setting up "cure stations" at dealers, but that won't be anywhere near me. There's no way I'll have a sunny day above freezing until ski season is over... but at least it's snowing now.
"Nothing like a very, very amorous woman in a leg imobilizer who dozes off every 3 1/2 minutes."
-Notchtop
I got to ski a number of skis, back to back on the same hill, same conditions. 1/2 with 1/2 without phantom. It does work, I'll have it on the skis I mount up in the future. It'll be worth it for me as I don't usually have time to wax anymore, and I ski in all conditions. I do have an affiliation with DPS, so as always, take it with a grain of salt.
www.dpsskis.com
www.point6.com
formerly an ambassador for a few others, but the ski industry is... interesting.
Fukt: a very small amount of snow.
Really?!? Tinkerer Numero Uno does not wax?
I used to be like that, for many years. But in recent seasons I've wound up skiing an inordinate amount of super cold and then crazy warm, mushy days. So I've started waxing a lot more. Not only does it save the crap out of those edge-conditions days (and I'm tele, so skis grabbing in super cold or wet snow sucks that much more - over-the-bars and all), but I've found that it makes a quite noticeable difference even on "normal" temp days (especially if you've got any traverses you want to stay high on, or catwalks, etc., on the schedule).
I'd totally be down with this magic, perma-wax, if it were anything like one-and-done. Not so keen on needing to base-grind on a regular basis (expense, hassle, having my skis in the shop when I might need them, etc.). I very rarely get grinds these days. I will wait for the data to come in, re: dependence on base grinds.
And DPS guy: thanks indeed for acknowledging your affiliation. But I assume then that you are biased, and that you're getting this $$$ super-lube for free or cheap (correct me if I'm wrong), which makes a big difference. Like I said, if it were 1/3 the price, I'd give it a go for sure. Can you maybe finagle a Mag-deal, make us all happy, sell some product, and gain some street cred?
teeheehee....lol, i spoke too soon.
After years of waxing obsessively, then got sick and tired of scraping the damn skis (running a rotation of about 5 pairs last few seasons)...cause I maintain about 45 pairs of skis in our LFH rental fleet...and....really didn't notice too much in the way of detriment unless weather/temps changed dramatically and previous wax was for a different temp range OR the particular skis i was on had the wrong base structure for the present snow surface...but whatever, I learned to live with it.
But, game changing discovery just this afternoon.
Had some boards to wax in the shop...had very little time...so...instead of dripping wax onto base and ironing it in, i incrementally rubbed surface of stick of wax on iron, rubbed the soft goo on the based evenly, incrementally from tip to tail. Eyeballed and guessed as to how much to use to have just the wafer thinnest of coats so as to not require any scraping.
Bingo!
The game is changed. 5 minute wax, no mess, no muss, no fuss, no heinous mess of wax scrapings. Buff 'er smooth with some scrotchbrite and good to go.
and...barely used any wax!!!!!!!!!!! probably gonna save about 60 percent of wax use based on quick estimates.
And who knows, it could be a regular M.O. for 90 percent of the skiing world but i'm old and slow on the uptake; coulda missed the train when the world switched to this method of waxing?
I thought about it and came to the conclusion that the ski base doesn't know that's it's not waxed according to regulations, laws and precedent. It just doesn't know.![]()
I'll never scrape another ski for the rest of my life.
5 minutes of waxing personal skis every week or so, I can live with. And now, i can do it in our house kitchen without risk of getting evicted by girlfriend landlord.
Master of mediocrity.
When I wax, I crayon wax then iron. Only time I drip is to hot scrape to clean base
Hmm...I always drip then iron. When I'm doing it regularly, I get good enough with just the right amount of drip that I barely have to scrape. But it's still a PITA to scrape. I'll try these alternative techniques - scraping is always the worst part.
IME it kinda depends on the ski and how flat yer base is as to how much wax you are gona use
Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
I crayon after a quick touch to the iron - you crayon on wax more easily/quickly.
Then I start ironing, and if I'm a little shy, crayon on after the iron passes that spot - that adds enough, usually, to handle that section. Repeat up the ski till it's handled. Sometimes, instead of moving the iron mostly tip to tail, I move more laterally to spread the very thin layer of wax across the whole ski. [But really, missing a tiny section of base isn't going to be the end of the world.]
And while I still scrape - I don't pull off much.
And yeah, I've stopped brushing and use a scotch pad [the ones from the kitchen are so much cheaper and more readily available!] as the final buff/polish. If there's a few spots too thick, buff harder.
My waxes aren't as quick as @swissiphic's [the Nikola Tesla of skiing] - but it's still pretty fast. And it saves a lot of wax.
A coupla notes: I've read a few reviews now where observations indicated that snow sticks to base in certain snow conditions...can't remember what temp range but suspect warmer moist snow. I work as a ski tech in the heliski industry and this is a problem experienced mostly during spring days where the pickups may be at lower elevation bands where temps are above freezing and landings are in the high alpine and well below zero. Particularly an issue on our 5-6000 vert foot runs where the temp differences are dramatic in the spring. Most frequently noticed with guests that have skis that aren't freshly waxed or personal equipment with dry bases. The snow/icing definitely scrapes off easier from a freshly waxed/buffed base but the effect lessens throughout the day as the micro surface layer of buffed waxed wears off.
Noticed that our recently purchased KUUsport graphite spring snow wax has a greater snow/ice stick resistance multi day endurance...still testing it and so far, awesome spring skiing wax. Did some touring in really gooey low elevation forest tree gunk drip snow and though glide was affected, the skis definitely ran faster and turned easier than on bases previously waxed with 'regular' yellow warm snow 'piss wax'. Have a chunk in my pack and now just rub it on before downhilling while ski touring and buff it with the leather gloved hand...works great.
Considering that one of the claims of Phantom Glide treated bases is that one can wax 'normally' if desired, perhaps this is the solution to the issue...seems like in a narrow band of conditions, the P.G. treated base acts like an unwaxed 'dry' base (snow stick on base/slight drag at slow speeds or starting from a stop) so maybe for certain days, a quick crayon wax job with no scrape and a quick buff is what's required for both mitigating the snow stick and the slow speed drag noted in some comments for certain snow conditions.
I'd say since the underlying performance of the P.G. treated base seems to work as advertised, the odd touch up wax job wouldn't be a deal breaker...but for me, it's just the damn price....you can buy a lot of wax for years and years worth worth of crayon application for the price of a P.G. treatment for a pair of skis.
As for post wax buffing: Though trial and error, noticed that simply rubbing the base with prit near anything buffs it smooth and shiny. Paper towel, scotchbrite pad, rubber gardening gloved hand...etc...
We're not all racing and have to brush out the wax residue from the base structure. For recreational skiing, there's just no need, IMO. A coupla runs usually does the trick. Folks have commented on some compromise of skin glue stick on a freshly waxed/shiney buffed base but I don't know...after 30 years plus of ski touring, it's never been an issue that i've really noticed a dramatic difference. I'm fastidious with rubbing the skins tip to tail to maximise the glue stick so maybe this helps mitigate any issues... just my experience, yrmv on this one...perhaps different brands of skins/glue perform differently in this regard and i've just been lucky with mine?
For the shop work i buff with my power tool 'because it's there' but for personal use, I use my leather gloved hand because you get the side benefit of waxing the palm of hand for both better grip on the ski pole AND a quick app of water proofing/resistance! Give gloves a blast of heat from a hairdryer/hot air gun or defrost heat vent on the drive to the ski hill and yer good to go! Saved me a few times after running out of snowseal and had to resort to alternative means for glove leather w.p. treatment.
Last edited by swissiphic; 04-12-2018 at 09:08 AM.
Master of mediocrity.
I have read the same reviews and from what I can tell, it's a non issue. Even when it sticks, it comes right off when you start skiing?
Yeah, agree, if thats the case. But thats not what I read. I read that if you leave your skis in the snow for an extended amount of time, it will stick, but goes away if you remove it, or just start skiing. I haven't tried it my self yet, so it's not like I know this firsthand. But what people report on the pugski board and what blister wrote, indicated nothing along the lines of being bad on the flats? More the opposite?
I'm thinking specifically of situations where you not coasting on the flats but kinda start and stopping, double poling. There's that microsecond of 'stop' where if you have drag on bases it requires a 15 percent+/- bit of extra effort to kick the skis forward again during yer double pole to get moving again...that adds up after a few kms.
I'll re read the reports and see if i misinterpreted/misread something though.
Master of mediocrity.
Bigger question though.
Those wet + fresh snow/small-crystal days...
IMO, absolutely NOTHING really "fixes" the drag you get on those days. I'm sure things can help some, and if you're racing, it may well make the difference between winning and coming last.
But for the average schmo on the hill, I don't think *anything* I've tried has made all that much difference. And when I say difference, I mean - where you don't really find you're getting a lot [or any] sticktion, and everyone else not using your secret method is complaining about it a lot.
And this is the place where I think most people want the biggest difference - that wet fresh snow.
The last couple of years here in Oregon, we've really not had "spring" skiing, where the snow corns up and it doesn't matter how wet it is, since the crystal size is so large. We've kept getting new on top of what's here often enough that you're always skiing snow that's never really gone through the freeze/thaw cycle enough times. Not that I'm complaining, it's nice to ski on fresh snow - but I do love me some corn.
For me, the TLDR version is:
For sticktion, you can perhaps make a very modest difference by greater structure, and fresh appropriate wax - but it's not going to reduce the drag by 98% or anything. It might be 20% better. Or, if I exaggerate a lot, perhaps 50%. But it's still going to be really noticeable and not that fun - you're not going to he hooting your way down the hill while everyone else scratches their heads wondering what magic trick you came up with to avoid the suck they're in.
Am I missing something, or does that mirror everyone else's experience?
I live on the northwest coast of B.C. and ski lots either directly on the coast by Prince Rupert, a bit interior around Terrace and work in the winter in Stewart.
What you said about yer experience last spring in Oregon is EXACTLY what we get prit near every spring in these parts. We rarely get the necessary longer term clear sunny days/clear cold nights freeze thaw conditions for classic corn development...typically the weather is unsettled with frequent small moist snowfalls followed by blazing heat sunny windows followed by another topping of moist snow to wet goo that gets baked and free water powtatos the snow surface.
The 'normal' bulk order yellow piss wax with a stated range of +2 to -4 is useless. Turns are suction cup stictiony.
I had a magic wax purchased in the 90's that i've used specifically for those days while ski touring and just rub it on, buff it with gloved hand ever ski touring run.
It works awesome, the glide is 'almost' as good as in colder temps snow...but...i used the last of it last season and was totally bummed out.
But, like i said, this KUUsport graphite stuff 'seems' to be the cure...haven't yet had that specific day of moist fresh followed by hot sun so can't state for sure, but, suspect it will be the ticket.
A lot of my skis have bases grooved out with lots of rocks scrapes so i'm sure 'nature's structuring' helps with the glide as well.
And yes, i've been out on LOTS of spring touring days where i was hootin' and hollerin' and my buds were spittin' and foaming cause their skis were gliding on sandpaper and they were double poling to get down the mountain.
Saved their days with my rub on 90's mystery wax though and we were back to business as usual.
Too old to remember what the hell the wax was/is when purchased, which kinda sux cause it was a game changer for those SPECIFIC days.
Also, don't know about you guys in Oregon, but up in these parts we can have season ending pollen discharge events in may/june. If there's an alignment of temps, dry days and wind, the hemlocks discharge pollen and it gets blown onto the snow surface, turns it yellow/green.
In these circumstances, there is seriously, NO GLIDE. You start a run and about 100 meters down the slope grind to a halt, like flipping over the handlebars style on any slope incline less than 35 degrees.
Solution? thus far it's been always carry a container of ski wax remover and over the course of the run, scrap the big layer off, then clean base with the ski wax remover. Good for another 100-300 meters, rinse and repeat.
But like i said, this KUUsport graphite stuff SEEMS to resist the buildup of forest gunk and goo so maybe it'll work for the pollen discharge apocalyptic conditions too...time will tell.
For sharp small faceted crystal snow, or wind driven broken crystals polar wax does the trick but it is expensive, so i basically throw a bit of green on then don't wax for the rest of the extended cold snaps below minus 20 C.
But again, that's all my personal experience, yrmv.
Master of mediocrity.
^^^ So, is crayon-ing the wax on, leaving enough surface deformation/irregulatiry that it vastly decreases water adhesion? Or do you really think that the wax type is the ticket?
It seems like you'd claim the latter, but I've also used racewax's Molybdenum/low-flouro [iron-ing it on] and while it may help, it's certainly not the panacea you describe above. (Hooting and holler'n vs poling.) Same with Swix Yellow and Low-flouro universal from RW. I've tried a few other waxes, and never felt the difference was very substantial.
...And I have the same experience for different levels of structure. Sandpaper down to 120 grit, using alternating diagonal patterns. I'd say that the effects are modest at best.
I certainly haven't done anything with a huge level of precision to it, and used finely calibrated measurements - just done it and skied them and compared to others I'm skiing with...but that's what I've found.
Good question; I generally don't hot wax in the later spring (mid april to early june), just do the rub on/crayon in the field before every run...but success definitely depends on having the right wax...that bulk +2 to -4 yellow didn't work worth a damn in the sun baked fresh snow but the 'mystery magik' wax sure did.
Maybe the success IS due to the physical layer of wax coating the base?
Talking more about open alpine and treeline terrain here with frequent top ups of fresh snow layers over a clean surface. The achillies heel is, of course, once you descend down into the truly warm old water saturated dirty forest goo, the coat of wax collects the gunk and you might end up having to clean the base a bit or at the end of the ski day...then start from scratch for the next run/ski day.
I'm talking ski touring specific at this point though, not heli or lift served high volume runs per day.
Also of note, once we get into true summer skiing conditions where the precip events just bring rain and no snow, i don't wax at all. just bring ski wax remover and clean the bases of the inevitable buildup of junk and goo after downhill runs and ski skin glue goo after the uphills. Bare back glide is fine over the suncups, rocks, shrubs, dead birds, bugs, spiders and bare ground.
Last edited by swissiphic; 04-12-2018 at 01:02 PM.
Master of mediocrity.
I’m sure this has been covered somewhere on here but I couldn’t pull it up in search- is there a way to scrape that is less effort? Is there a power tool for scraping off a hot wax? Scraping my skis hurts my (injured) back worse than skiing.
When it’s still hot, put a fiberlene sheet under your iron and do a hard final pass. You’ll still have to hard scrape after the wax dries but way way less.
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