Bike Purchase Advice (1st full susp.)

[skaredshtles]

This...

Fit is key.
In my mind, getting a bike that fits your build is important, you also want to make sure it "fits" relative to how and where you like to ride, or perhaps more importantly where you will do the majority of your riding.
After that, the n+1 rule starts to apply.

I would recommend not getting too caught up on the actual suspension design, instead focus on how it feels climbing and descending. It is efficient on the up, no wasted energy or pedal feedback when rolling up and over roots, supple and compliant providing good traction? How does it feel on the down, are the wheels planted, does it track, how is the balance of small bump compliance and the ability to suck up the big stuff?

As someone else mentioned earlier, suspension set up for your weight and riding style needs to be taken into consideration. A poorly set up bike that might otherwise be a good fit might give you the wrong impression.

One of the major issues I've found with demo bikes - they generally have shitty tires on them. Shops really oughta put GOOD shoes on their demo bikes. It makes a huge difference...

[ACH]

One of the major issues I've found with demo bikes - they generally have shitty tires on them. Shops really oughta put GOOD shoes on their demo bikes. It makes a huge difference...

Can't disagree with that.
It's like demoing skis with a shitty tune.

The brand/rep fleets tend to be better maintained.

That said, if a person is demoing, they should at least have an awareness up front of what's going on with the tires so they can be a little more grounded in regard to the end result.

[creaky fossil]

I would recommend not getting too caught up on the actual suspension design, instead focus on how it feels climbing and descending. It is efficient on the up, no wasted energy or pedal feedback when rolling up and over roots, supple and compliant providing good traction? How does it feel on the down, are the wheels planted, does it track, how is the balance of small bump compliance and the ability to suck up the big stuff?

Focusing on feel is relevant only when the bike is set up properly for your weight & riding style.

Most likely a shop setting up a demo uses bike mfr charts for PSI in fork & shock springs. Mfr charts typically are a rough estimate.

I wonder how many FS bikes sold in the USA at $3k+ will ride poorly once set up to your weight & style. Are there bikes that generally suck even after being set up properly?

There may be small differences in suspension action, trail feel, etc., but if you haven't owned & ridden extensively any FS bikes in the past, these small differences will be off the radar in comparison to the newness of full squish.

* * *

As to fit, which others have mentioned: maybe you can get good at reading geometry charts & sorting out how that bike will fit, maybe you can't. I'm used to doing that, I don't even need Reach/Stack calculated separately when I look at geo numbers. You may be different. If you are, then seeing the bike in person, sitting on it, checking fit will be important.

Then again if your current bike is more along the lines of trad geometry (more XC ish, more cramped cockpit, slacker seat tube angle), newer geometry bikes ALL will feel a lot different.

Remember the biggest differences will be simply hardtail to FS differences.

[mtngirl79]

The op could gain a rudimentary understanding of suspension and bring a shock pump along to f' with the suspension.

its not terribly complicated, just make sure you write down or remember where you started and what you change.

[RootSkier]

pick a bike, buy that bike, then ride that bike.

Fully agree. Someone moving into a modern-geometry full suspension bike is not going to be able to tell the difference between similar bikes. No fucking way.

[doebedoe]

Fully agree. Someone moving into a modern-geometry full suspension bike is not going to be able to tell the difference between similar bikes. No fucking way.

True facts.

I got modern-d last year. Went from HT, v-braked, Ti, 3x9 w/ 100mm Reba to a 160mm FS slacked out trail bike. All the trail bikes felt awesome. The only massive difference between good bikes that I felt was the stupid demo that had no dropper post. No dropper == less fun.

[grinch]

Devinci make great bikes. Don't see many fail. Aluminum models still have good rear shock and fork. That being said, most companies are making a good bike these days so I concentrate on fit. I bought a transition scout ,for a trail bike,this year and love it. So fun. Short cs and long tt and lots of standover fits my long torso short inseam perfectly. After a few days the low bb has light bulbs going off. I was going to lower my fork to 150(from160)but It doesn't detract from climbing and shines on the downs. I had sold my dh bike in favour of a 180 fork on the burled up enduro bike(coil shock , meaty treads), and put nice low climbing gears on it to get it anywhere. The frame is a banshee rune and it's been great but that scout has me looking at a gorilla gravity megatrail(165 or 150).Despite have 40mm extra travel , than the scout, the megatrail has same length cs, same standover(amazing) and virtually the same tt (scout med-megatrail small). I had a few bikes on my list to get me close to the fit of the scout , and guerrilla gravity is a few more $'s, but all the others just fit not quite as good at every number and the guerrilla gravity had a full 2 inches more of standover. A versatile 2 bike quiver(scout w 160 fork and megatrail w 180 fork) and very similar fit. Mm's drive me nuts so I just buy what fits, within reason. I'm not into carbon frames . I don't have much faith in any companies replacement policy. Just my choices. Fit is key with what's out there now. 2 companies I really like though are transition and devinci(not the lightest but durable and stand behind their product). Interested in looking into guerrilla gravity more. I like what they're doing. Hope they don't lengthen their chainstays because Minnaar is and everyone is thinking they also need to(not to mention he's 6'4" and is all leg)/end blog
Ps- good luck - bikes are amazing in the last couple years and great time to buy

[XXX-er]

i disagree with pick a bike any bike, I say 1st your need to figure what kinda FS bike you want, then ride some in your price point ... find THE bike that speaks to you

[grinch]

^^bike whisperer. Try it. Tell us which one speaks to you

[XXX-er]

well the last bike I bought is the Yeti so I drank the turquoise coolaid but it should be pretty simple ... anything red

[ACH]

i disagree with pick a bike any bike, I say 1st your need to figure what kinda FS bike you want, then ride some in your price point ... find THE bike that speaks to you

Yeah, this is more or less my point.

I also disagree that someone who is riding full for the first time (beyond the initial time in the saddle) won't be able to feel the difference between some of the suspension platforms out there. Sure there is going to to be the initial contrast between anything suspended vs. hard tail, but that will wear off quick enough. Also, it's a crappy dealer/rep that sends a potential customer out on a bike without providing basic suspension set up.


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

[jono]

Agreed. The nuances that people go nuts over (imagined and otherwise) will not be obvious but it doesn't take long to notice pedal feedback differences even in a parking lot. (A glance down at the shock might help if the latest Ellsworth feels good to you.) It gets into a gray area when shocks are set stiff to mask that because a new rider might not notice the stiff setting as much. But if you take the same setup up a smooth hill for pedaling, onto a washboard to check small bump response and off whatever kind of drop you feel comfortable with/actually intend to ride you'll have a pretty good idea. Pedaling response over bumps is something I would leave out because you spend a relatively tiny amount of time in that condition; if the bike takes bumps and pedals well that's more important.

Just don't fall in love with the first one and the whole activity should be a useful introduction to FS.

[XXX-er]

One of the major issues I've found with demo bikes - they generally have shitty tires on them. Shops really oughta put GOOD shoes on their demo bikes. It makes a huge difference...

Were they really bad tires or were they just wrong for where you ride?

In any case the shop can't afford that kind of thing on every model in the shop so what you demo is gona be what ever comes out of the carton from the mfger and what you buy

then if you buy it and pay to upgrade the tires any bike store will do that

[fastfred]

well the last bike I bought is the Yeti so I drank the turquoise coolaid but it should be pretty simple ... anything red

planning on moving to colorado?

yeti is the offishall bike, you have to have one in order to be cool and be a good rider, riding a yeti will make you a great rider even if you suck

I enjoy my aluminum hard tail 26 incher bike nashbar frame, but that's just me

and yes tires are over rated, who cares what tires you have

[XXX-er]

I flunked the entrance exam to dental school so not moving to colorado any time soon, junior's shop is selling Yeti and he is enduro racing the 5.5, told me it was a great bike and I needed one

So I got in some extensive demo'ing , his is a large which feels a bit long cuz I am only 5'8" so I went for the medium which is prefect

Comparing a Yeti to say a Giant, the Giants comes mostly all put together with better margins so the Giant is the money maker.

There is not much of a margin on Yeti and they come not so pre assembled so it costs the shop time ( & money) for the mechanic to put a Yeti together

SO yeah they are very cool but in spite of a 6K price tag the store is not making much $ on a Yeti

IME all you gotta have to be a cool Yeti rider is 6K you don't need

[skaredshtles]

Were they really bad tires or were they just wrong for where you ride?

They were clapped out Maxxis tires. Not inappropriate for the area - but worn pretty well out.

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
and yes tires are over rated, who cares what tires you have

[ACH]

Lulz - paging DS (or not)


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

[creaky fossil]

Agreed. The nuances that people go nuts over (imagined and otherwise) will not be obvious but it doesn't take long to notice pedal feedback differences even in a parking lot. (A glance down at the shock might help if the latest Ellsworth feels good to you.) It gets into a gray area when shocks are set stiff to mask that because a new rider might not notice the stiff setting as much. But if you take the same setup up a smooth hill for pedaling, onto a washboard to check small bump response and off whatever kind of drop you feel comfortable with/actually intend to ride you'll have a pretty good idea. Pedaling response over bumps is something I would leave out because you spend a relatively tiny amount of time in that condition; if the bike takes bumps and pedals well that's more important.

Just don't fall in love with the first one and the whole activity should be a useful introduction to FS.

Pedal feedback, performance over ripples/rocks/roots, sense of chassis stability/efficiency... all of these can be screwed up with damping adjuster twiddling zeal, or damper adjustment inattentiveness. In other words, if wrong.

Square pedalers often find FS chassis dynamics out of sync with their pedaling when new to FS.

Also the Shockwiz gizmo seems to be successful, there must be a reason for that other than New Gadget Lust, eh?

[TBS]

Nice bikes in your price range:

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/bikes-anthem-2018
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/bikes-trance-2018

These are excellent values at their price points. Buddy just got an '18 Trance and is digging it

Saw this earlier today on Colorado Cyclist:

https://www.coloradocyclist.com/devi...-complete-bike

https://www.coloradocyclist.com/devi...-complete-bike

These are screaming bargains - under what our LBS is paying for them. I've ridden the alu 29r and liked the way it handled. One issue with the carbon version - the Guide brakes are no Bueno. Our LBS has sold five with guides this summer, have had to replace three sets under warranty

[jono]

Pedal feedback, performance over ripples/rocks/roots, sense of chassis stability/efficiency... all of these can be screwed up with damping adjuster twiddling zeal, or damper adjustment inattentiveness. In other words, if wrong.

Square pedalers often find FS chassis dynamics out of sync with their pedaling when new to FS.

Also the Shockwiz gizmo seems to be successful, there must be a reason for that other than New Gadget Lust, eh?

I suggested using the "same setup" on those three tests for the reason you note: if setup is wrong I think even a newbie can detect it in one of those areas. It's not proof against a bad shop making a bike look bad, and certainly no substitute for a very involved setup, but you have to start somewhere simple if things like fit etc. are going to be heavily weighted in your evaluation.

Inevitably, a few rides or months later the riding style will have morphed to match the bike, but before a purchase he's got a chance to figure out what he wants that to look like. Might as well give it an educated guess.

[creaky fossil]

I suggested using the "same setup" on those three tests for the reason you note: if setup is wrong I think even a newbie can detect it in one of those areas. It's not proof against a bad shop making a bike look bad, and certainly no substitute for a very involved setup, but you have to start somewhere simple if things like fit etc. are going to be heavily weighted in your evaluation.

Inevitably, a few rides or months later the riding style will have morphed to match the bike, but before a purchase he's got a chance to figure out what he wants that to look like. Might as well give it an educated guess.

Sure, optimizing one's likelihood of happiness with money spent is always a good idea.

I'm just saying "demo demo demo" is useful only here: (1) each bike was chosen for proper size relative to rider's needs/preferences & what the mfr's geometry plays out as; (2) each demo'd bike was set up with shock/fork PSI proper to rider's weight & style/preferences, and damper knobs adjusted likewise; (3) there are enough bikes near a trailhead to ride the same trail near enough in time/conditions to the other compared bikes so it's all set up for you to compare directly, run vs run or 2 runs vs 2 runs, etc.

I think of it also like demo'ing a pair of skis that are made well, they're the right size for you & the ski's shape etc are what you want, but the tune sucks & so the ski feels like crap. You (generic "you") might take this ski back to the rep and mumble "thanks" and not even ask about or check the tune, thinking "the brand's known for good builds and solid reps in the field, I'm sure the tune was dialed." Wouldn't be the first skier to do this, wouldn't even be in the minority I think.

Demos are always interesting but I wouldn't call them essential.

Yesterday I rode a friend's bike, first 650B I've ridden on trails, first modern 1x drivetrain, first time on Avid brakes in a decade+, first time on a Schwalbe Nobby Nic rear tire, and first time on Giant Maestro on a trail ride. I liked how it climbed. To what feature should I attribute my finding about good climbing?

[ACH]

To what feature should I attribute my finding about good climbing?

Demo, don't demo, it's not an absolute.
If you can, it's not a bad way to go, especially if you are planning to drop a considerable chunk of change (relative to you) on your next rig.

Maestro suspension is very compliant on ascents without giving anything up (or at least very little) in terms of efficiency, it allows the rear wheel to track especially well without breaking traction. Geometry played a role too, chain stay length and seat angle for instance. The tires? Meh, the NN is on the lighter side, so lower rotating mass will make whatever you are pedaling feel more efficient, just don't be to over reliant on that tire when things get pointed down hill.

[toast2266]

The nuances of similar demo bikes are probably lost on someone who's not getting their suspension setup reasonably dialed. But this thread has suggestions ranging from a hardtail Chromag to a Santa Cruz Tallboy to a Guerrilla Gravity Megatrail, and quite a few things in between. That's a pretty huge spectrum, and a demo would at least help OP figure out, in a general sense, what category of bike he likes best.

Or just buy a Troy, because that's a great bike.

[creaky fossil]

Demo, don't demo, it's not an absolute.
If you can, it's not a bad way to go, especially if you are planning to drop a considerable chunk of change (relative to you) on your next rig.

Maestro suspension is very compliant on ascents without giving anything up (or at least very little) in terms of efficiency, it allows the rear wheel to track especially well without breaking traction. Geometry played a role too, chain stay length and seat angle for instance. The tires? Meh, the NN is on the lighter side, so lower rotating mass will make whatever you are pedaling feel more efficient, just don't be to over reliant on that tire when things get pointed down hill.

I'm glad you didn't say it was because the bike had Avid brakes.

Here's why I think it climbs well:

(1) I'm used to dw-link, Maestro on this 2017 Anthem resembles dw in pedaling crispness. (2) The bike's rear shock was just rebuilt. (3) The modern 1x drivetrain with 30t chainring and 42 (I think) big cog is a pretty small gear, good for old & slow climbers like me. (4) Anthem puts you on the bike in what feels to me like an XC racer position (low hands, mostly).

Schwalbe tire? Naaah, I run semi-baldies like Ardent Race, Ikon, Crossmark and have no issues in climbing. The side knobs on Nobby Nic feel weird, and that's what gave me the idea for a good ski, bad tune demo.