E MTBs on TRT?

[Redsmurfer]

Saw a couple of riders on these this weekend on the TRT for the first time.

https://www.outsideonline.com/209089...e-you-believer

These guys legal on Tahoe trails? I have not quite made up my mind on what to think? Technological marvel or the beginning of the end of mountain biking as we know it? Its climbing speed was impressive considering the size, age and conditioning of the riders.

[stuckathuntermtn]

They're being banned on the non-motorized trails around here

[Dantheman]

Descents on such a heavy bike are less fun. Getting the rear wheel off the ground on short notice, or whipping it around turns is very hard. I like to use my rear tire and brakes to steer—locking the brakes in tight corners at speed, then letting off and pedaling out. On very loose and exposed trails, using that approach on the Turbo Levo doesn't work, once the rear starts to loose traction, it’s just all over.

In the air, the additional weight is also very noticeable. Tail whips are out of the question.

Sounds awesome

[kidwoo]

The TRT is designated non-motorized. So no.

[Damian Sanders]

Shouldn't this be in the moped forum?

[skaredshtles]

The TRT is designated non-motorized. So no.

It's kind of inconceivable to my brain that people continue to mistake these for non-motorized conveyances.

If I called a two/four-stroke motocross a g-bike, would that make it OK to take on non-motorized trails?

That would be a p-bike for you Euro blokes.

[evdog]

Every time I've called one of them out or seen one called out their response has been "It's a class 1 e-bike, it's legal on non-motorized trails".

[Shredhead]

Aspen/Snowmass is struggling with the issue, on multi use trails that use easements.
Aspen bans them on the Rio Grande Trail. While Glenwood is actually encouraging them on the same trail, to ease congestion due to the closure of the Grand Avenue Bridge.
IMHO, they should be allowed on MUTs.



Snowmass, Aspen exploring the impact of e-bike influ

Amid the surging popularity of e-bikes, the town of Snowmass Village has banned the machines on its trails, and Aspen officials today are to be briefed on the issue.

Snowmass’ prohibition comes ahead of a new law that goes into effect Aug. 9. The bill, passed by the Legislature in April, creates three classes of the e-bikes, one of which can approach 30 mph. The law will allow Class 1 and Class 2 machines, which are limited to 20 mph, on trails used by cyclists on regular bikes and pedestrians.

E-bikes come with a small electric motor that can boost a rider up hills and on flat terrain, with the first class providing assistance only when the rider is pedaling, help that ceases when the bike reaches 20 mph; the second class provides assistance regardless of whether the rider is pedaling, with the boost also ceasing when it reaches 20 mph. The third class provides assistance only when pedaling, with the electric help ceasing when the bike hits 28 mph.

That’s according to the law’s language, which was provided to the Snowmass Town Council last month. The legislation allows local jurisdictions to prohibit their use, and on July 17, council members voted for an emergency ordinance that bans all three classes on village trails.

That maintains the status quo for trail usage, said Travis Elliott, assistant to the town manager, as e-bikes are currently prohibited.

“Morally, we don’t have an opinion,” he said Tuesday. “We’re just more concerned with maintaining our easements.”

Many Snowmass trails — including Sky Mountain Park — cross multiple areas, with land controlled by the town, Pitkin County, the U.S. Forest Service and private property owners.

“A lot of those trails use easements that are specific to non-motorized use, so we were concerned we could potentially lose those,” Elliott said.

The county in 2011 banned e-bikes from its portion of the Rio Grande Trail, though that ban is being violated almost daily.

Austin Weiss, the city of Aspen parks and open space director, said a memo to city council was to be sent today about e-bikes. The issue went before the city’s open space and trails board last month.

Board members’ opinion was “not absolutely no,” he said. “They realize [e-bikes] have a place in alternative transportation.”

The memo to council has nothing to do with policy recommendation and is more of an update on where Aspen stands currently on the issue, Weiss said.

Snowmass town staff recommended to council that the municipality work with the county open space and trails department to identify trails that may be “appropriate for e-bike operation in a holistic manner,” says the memo from Snowmass Town Attorney John Dresser to council. “After such identification, [the town should] undertake a review of the terms of use for easements underlying the paths and trails considered for potential e-bike use so as to eliminate any risk of loss of such easements.”

A comprehensive trail-use plan that could include use by the machines may follow.

E-bikes are not without controversy, as many motor-less cyclists and pedestrians are not fans of what can be fast-moving devices. A local couple had their machines vandalized last month, as did one bike shop in Aspen. The couple told authorities they bought the e-bikes to commute between Snowmass Village and Aspen. Elliott said that, under the emergency ordinance, the couple should not be using them on the popular Owl Creek Trail between the communities.

“Technically, they should be using the road if it is motorized,” he said. “That is something we’ll be evaluating.”

The evaluation process also involves using GIS technology to map the town’s easements. The town’s newly established parks, open space and trails advisory board will also be asked to weigh in, Elliott said.

“We will [also] want to take regional restrictions into consideration, and have a broader conversation,” he said. “We would want to be on the same page as our neighbors, especially for trails that cross jurisdictions.

“We have a lot of homework to do.”

[Dantheman]

Every time I've called one of them out or seen one called out their response has been "It's a class 1 e-bike, it's legal on non-motorized trails".

That depends. All classes of e-bike are prohibited on non-motorized FS and BLM trails. If you see people riding e-bikes on FS/BLM trails tell them to pound sand. The TRT is managed almost entirely by the FS and therefore Class 1 e-bikes are definitely not legal.
http://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-conten...n-July2015.pdf
http://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-conten...efingPaper.pdf

On non-federal land it is up to the discretion of the land manager. In those cases, AFAIK Class 1 are allowed unless they have been explicitly prohibited.

[ACH]

The threat to trail access is real in my mind...
However (based on what I am seeing at a trade level), we are fooling ourselves if we think this is something that is going to go away. There is a storm and a associated flood brewing on the horizon.
I don't envy Dave Wiens task (IMBA) related to the matter.

[mmmm...pow!]

Definitely not legal on TRT or any other non-motorized dirt trail in the Tahoe Basin (pretty sure they are allowed on the bike path). However, neither are motos and I see their tracks on the TRT pretty much every time I ride it. There's only one or two FS Rangers patrolling Tahoe and surrounding areas, so enforcement is spotty. I personally don't care much either way, I have no desire to ride one and don't give a fuck what someone else rides, but that comment above about the bikes being heavier, thus skidding around corners, makes me rethink that. And also the possibility of bikes climbing stuff that is usually just ridden downhill. Don't know why you wouldn't just buy a moto if you are too lazy to pedal a bike.

[mcski]

Where on TRT did you see them? I've been expecting to see them appearing as they are starting to appear as rentals in TC, but so far I have yet to see any on TRT. Based on the scud missile syndrome I have to watch on the bridge, it would not be a welcome development. There was a soner bike that supposedly climbed trt frequently last year but I never saw it

[Redsmurfer]

Tahoe Meadows/upper Tyrolean DH

Based on ACH comments it looks like the beginning of the end.

[plugboots]

The threat to trail access is real in my mind...
However (based on what I am seeing at a trade level), we are fooling ourselves if we think this is something that is going to go away. There is a storm and a associated flood brewing on the horizon.
I don't envy Dave Wiens task (IMBA) related to the matter.

No shit.

I was at a National business meeting, and as is the case the 3 of us, out of 1200, who ride bikes, got together to shoot the crap. The one dude who lives in So Cal went on and on how cool eBikes were because it will allow him to do more laps. The other 2 of us were like, "Yeah whatever", but he said he'll just ride more, it's not about it being easier.

I just nodded, cuz it's work and all, but fuck those things.

[PNWbrit]

Snowboarding.

[evdog]

That depends. All classes of e-bike are prohibited on non-motorized FS and BLM trails. If you see people riding e-bikes on FS/BLM trails tell them to pound sand. The TRT is managed almost entirely by the FS and therefore Class 1 e-bikes are definitely not legal.
http://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-conten...n-July2015.pdf
http://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-conten...efingPaper.pdf

On non-federal land it is up to the discretion of the land manager. In those cases, AFAIK Class 1 are allowed unless they have been explicitly prohibited.

This was USFS non-motorized trail in a rec area. These people are either clueless and genuinely convinced that Class 1 is allowed or they are just taking advantage of the lack of signage and consistency between land designations.

If it weren't for potential access issues I wouldn't really care about e-bikes. I don't think trail damage from them is a real concern aside from bringing increased traffic in some areas. They aren't powerful enough to roost. As for them allowing people to climb up stuff that can't be climbed now, a lot of those trails out west tend to be rutted out and chunky - I doubt many unskilled e-bikers are going to be able to hamster-wheel a 50 lb e-bike up those even with assist.

The bigger problem is they will allow people who already ride downhill like douchebags, to also ride uphill like douchebags. I don't know what the answer will be regarding non-motorized trails. Will agencies cave and allow them? Or just prohibit them and then deal with a compliance problem. I am mostly bummed they are getting popular at the same time we're trying to get some access to PCT/Wilderness using the argument bikes are human powered. E bikes definitely aren't going to help us there....

The ideal solution is a small scale motion triggered EMP at every trail head. It will solve the e-bike problem and the strava tard problem.

[ACH]

Tahoe Meadows/upper Tyrolean DH

Based on ACH comments it looks like the beginning of the end.

Hard to know for sure, the beginning of "something" though.
That's the thing about not knowing/the unknown...
We can hypothesize, but until that day gets here, it's just all speculation.

No shit.

I was at a National business meeting, and as is the case the 3 of us, out of 1200, who ride bikes, got together to shoot the crap. The one dude who lives in So Cal went on and on how cool eBikes were because it will allow him to do more laps. The other 2 of us were like, "Yeah whatever", but he said he'll just ride more, it's not about it being easier.

I just nodded, cuz it's work and all, but fuck those things.

I have mixed emotions...
For pavement and streets, I think it's a really good thing.
I think if I lived in an urban environment, I would own a Yuba cargo bike, just to keep the car in the garage more frequently, for all those short trips where I don't want to break a sweat. However, it's not a reach to be able to add a set of knobby tires with the intent to hit the dirt, and a lot of folks are looking at that, thinking that it sounds like a good idea, without having visibility to the larger access issue.

The ideal solution is a small scale motion triggered EMP at every trail head. It will solve the e-bike problem and the strava tard problem.

Something that could be targeted with laser accuracy would be awesome, I would use it every time I see someone texting on their cell while drifting into my lane.

[TahoeJ]

Not a fan of this but I'm honestly more annoyed by so many local trails - including parts of the TRT - getting chewed up by fucking dirt bikes. It only takes a couple of those things to rip up the trail and turn it into moon dust. I've only seen a FS employee once in the hundreds of hours I've spent riding in the area so they correctly figure they can just get away with it.

[muted]

The ideal solution is a small scale motion triggered EMP at every trail head. It will solve the e-bike problem and the strava tard problem.

I don't know exactly what an EMP does, but it sounds wonderful.

[ACH]

I don't know exactly what an EMP does, but it sounds wonderful.

Electro - Magnetic - Pulse

It disrupts electronic equipment...

[Dantheman]

The one dude who lives in So Cal went on and on how cool eBikes were because it will allow him to do more laps. The other 2 of us were like, "Yeah whatever", but he said he'll just ride more, it's not about it being easier.

More laps on a 50 lb bike that handles like shit? Sign me up! You'd think there was a reason 45 lb DH bikes don't exist any more....

This was USFS non-motorized trail in a rec area. These people are either clueless and genuinely convinced that Class 1 is allowed or they are just taking advantage of the lack of signage and consistency between land designations.

Probably the former and just repeating what the shop bro who sold them the bikes said.

If it weren't for potential access issues I wouldn't really care about e-bikes....Will agencies cave and allow them? Or just prohibit them and then deal with a compliance problem. I am mostly bummed they are getting popular at the same time we're trying to get some access to PCT/Wilderness using the argument bikes are human powered. E bikes definitely aren't going to help us there....

Totally agree. It will be all too easy for land managers who may already have mixed feelings (or outright contempt) for bikes to just throw up their hands and say, "Fuck it, these things are everywhere now, people aren't respecting restrictions and we don't have the resources to enforce them, so we're going to ban/continue banning all bikes."

I don't think trail damage from them is a real concern aside from bringing increased traffic in some areas. They aren't powerful enough to roost. As for them allowing people to climb up stuff that can't be climbed now, a lot of those trails out west tend to be rutted out and chunky - I doubt many unskilled e-bikers are going to be able to hamster-wheel a 50 lb e-bike up those even with assist....The bigger problem is they will allow people who already ride downhill like douchebags, to also ride uphill like douchebags. I don't know what the answer will be regarding non-motorized trails.

Yeah, roosting doesn't seem to be a real concern. What does concern me is increased traffic and inexperienced riders with minimal bike handling skills descending on 50 lb bikes. For their own safety as much as that of others. Sort of like winter driving noobs who don't understand the limitations of AWD.

The ideal solution is a small scale motion triggered EMP at every trail head. It will solve the e-bike problem and the strava tard problem.

Integrated GPS unit with Trailforks-style GIS database of prohibited routes. Motor is automatically disabled within 50 ft of any route in the database. Or, mandatory rainbow dildo paint job.

[skaredshtles]

Not a fan of this but I'm honestly more annoyed by so many local trails - including parts of the TRT - getting chewed up by fucking dirt bikes. It only takes a couple of those things to rip up the trail and turn it into moon dust. I've only seen a FS employee once in the hundreds of hours I've spent riding in the area so they correctly figure they can just get away with it.

Much like *you* could get away with riding in Designated Wilderness areas around there.

If you were a bastard.

[muted]

Electro - Magnetic - Pulse

It disrupts electronic equipment...

Disrupts as in turns it off? Or ruins it?

[ACH]

Disrupts as in turns it off? Or ruins it?

IDK, there's a lot of conflicting information (and Hollywood portrayals that are probably complete fabrication)...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

[Empty Beer]

This is horrible

https://youtu.be/n8kWuE5Pd0k

Get used to it... especially when your buddies go to the dark (and allegedly more fun) side