MNC bindings that work with ALL boot soles - which is the best...

[dkny2la]

Got some spiffy new boots that have a WTR sole and discovered they won't work with any of my existing clamps (Rossi FKS/Look Pivots and Tyrolia Attack 13). So I'm looking to get some new bindings, and this time around, I want them to be compatible with ALL boot soles in case I change boots in the future. I don't want to deal with boot binging compatablity issues again down the road. Looks like the best choices for MNC bindings currently are:

Salomon Warden 13
Tyrolia Attack 14 AT
Marker Griffon 13 ID
Tyrolia Adrenalin 13 (considering this as an option for flexabilty to try some backcountry as it appears to not come at much of a weight or performance penalty).

Any recommendations on which is best and why?

[phallic-menace]

Cheapest and easiest is to replace the sole blocks on your boots with alpine soles.
Pivot/fks can be retrofitted with an afd for wtr

[Chugachjed]

Marker lord sp

[dkny2la]

Marker Lords? Any reason they would be better than the Griffon ID? Seems like the Griffon ID makes the Lord SP obsolete which is why I didn't put it on my short list.

[galibier_numero_un]

Lots of good info on this thread: http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...e-compatibilty

Marker's Grip Walk "standard" (there's always a jester in the crowd) is a bit different from WTR. Thanks guys.

Also (as mentioned above), Look has released a WTR AFD for the pivots. Technically, it's not ISO 9523 compatible however.

... Thom

[Breomonkey]

To throw a curve ball out there. The official stance is STH is NOT WTR compatible, but in looking over my bindings last night I recognized 2 things.

1)The shape of the AFD is nearly identical to the STH2. The base plate is just a bit thinner on the STH's.
2) Toe height has plenty of vertical movement to exceed the setup process for the WTR sole.

So this begs the question. If the AFD is the same profile, material and you can set the height correctly......... I still need to think through the ramp angle aspect of it. What's to make them not suitable for WTR? (beyond official certification by the MFG? My thought is that Salomon likely did not want to go back and retroactively approve the old gear. You don't make money as a business by investing in activities that do not generate revenue. By creating an STH2 which was WTR compatible, people have the peace of mind knowing they've got a approved system.

Has anyone dug into this at a more technical level? There's plenty of "yeah I'm doing it" comments around the forums here, but my observations last night led me to question what's really different?

[gregL]

What's to make them not suitable for WTR?

The AFD doesn't slide like the Warden one does, making the release value highly dependent on boot sole condition, etc. Same is true of the Pivot 18 aftermarket WTR baseplate. Your ISO 9523 sole "fits" fine, though.

[Chugachjed]

Marker Lords? Any reason they would be better than the Griffon ID? Seems like the Griffon ID makes the Lord SP obsolete which is why I didn't put it on my short list.

I always felt like I was going to break griffons. They seem plasticky and weak. Lords feel like jesters much burlier.

[Breomonkey]

Looks like there is a Jester ID as well.

[gregL]

Cheapest and easiest is to replace the sole blocks on your boots with alpine soles.

Unless his boot is the Lange XT 130 Freetour . . .

[dkny2la]

Unless his boot is the Lange XT 130 Freetour . . .

Yea - exactly! My boots are the Lange XT 130 Freetour so switching out to alpine soles is not an option. Even if it was, that still would not accomplish my goal of having one binding that works with all boots.

[dkny2la]

No love for the Tyrolia Attack 14 AT? Anyone have them and can tell me the weight and how they compare to the Salomon Wardens?

[galibier_numero_un]

Greg,
Based on Breomonkey's description, wouldn't this make the STH2 WTR "compatible" (not necessarily indemnified), but not ISO 9523 compatible? Ramp angle would be a skier preference thing and not a compatibility/indemnification issue (I think Breomonkey knows this).

To throw a curve ball out there. The official stance is STH is NOT WTR compatible, but in looking over my bindings last night I recognized 2 things.

1)The shape of the AFD is nearly identical to the STH2. The base plate is just a bit thinner on the STH's.
2) Toe height has plenty of vertical movement to exceed the setup process for the WTR sole.

So this begs the question. If the AFD is the same profile, material and you can set the height correctly......... I still need to think through the ramp angle aspect of it. What's to make them not suitable for WTR? (beyond official certification by the MFG? My thought is that Salomon likely did not want to go back and retroactively approve the old gear. You don't make money as a business by investing in activities that do not generate revenue. By creating an STH2 which was WTR compatible, people have the peace of mind knowing they've got a approved system.

Has anyone dug into this at a more technical level? There's plenty of "yeah I'm doing it" comments around the forums here, but my observations last night led me to question what's really different?

The AFD doesn't slide like the Warden one does, making the release value highly dependent on boot sole condition, etc. Same is true of the Pivot 18 aftermarket WTR baseplate. Your ISO 9523 sole "fits" fine, though.

... Thom

[gregL]

Greg,
Based on Breomonkey's description, wouldn't this make the STH2 WTR "compatible" (not necessarily indemnified), but not ISO 9523 compatible?

It fits fine. My Scarpa and Garmont AT boots from a few years back fit fine in STH toes, too, and I skied plenty of days in them. Can't tell customers it is "OK" though.

[Breomonkey]

Sth2 is WTR compatible. Did you mean. The older STH? If so, that's where my head is.

I haven't tried fitting my mastrale into the sth/sth2's but since there's no sliding afd it crosses the line I'm comfortable with. I have used them in the wardens.

Re: the ramp angle comment. Absolutely skier preference. I doubt it would be significant.

Don't the LOrds & Marker frame bindings adjust the afd? Look and Rossi do with the duals. On the hand Salomon is a constant afd height and the toe piece moves. Subtle differences, no idea on real world implications, but I think this is starting to split hairs.

[dkny2la]

Don't the LOrds & Marker frame bindings adjust the afd? Look and Rossi do with the duals. On the hand Salomon is a constant afd height and the toe piece moves. Subtle differences, no idea on real world implications, but I think this is starting to split hairs.

That's actually an interesting point. Tyrolia and Marker adjust the height of the AFD buy moving it up and down a ramp which means it also is changing the position of the the AFD length wise in relation to the boot sole. This could potentially cause the AFD to not line up correctly with the "hard/flat" portion of the boot sole on a WTR sole for instance. So perhaps Salomon's way of adjusting the toe height by moving the toe clamps rather than the AFD would be a slight advantage? Plus, this way Salomon keeps the boot sole closer to the ski (lower stack height), another advantage? (p.s. I love splitting hairs)

[phallic-menace]

My apologies for the sole block comment, I assumed all wtr compatible boots had an alpine sole option. The lange xt 130 freetour looks like a nice boot.

I've 2 pairs of wardens and am quite happy with price, durability and simplicity. If you're confident you'll never need more than a 13 din I'd have no hesitation in suggesting an all warden quiver.

The only other bindings I've skied that meet your needs are markers options. When clicking into markers I don't enjoy the same reassuring thud as salomon or look and find the release sluggish.

[markcjr]

Anyone use 15/16 scarpa freedom sl's in either warden's or marker jester sole ID's? wondering which to buy...if there is a difference in quality etc.

[phallic-menace]

I used freedom rs in wardens. I'm not sure if it's the boots fault or the binding but the heel cup where the binding clamps onto was chewed up in less than a season. I cant use the boots in alpine clamps anymore.
A friend used freedom sl with Lord sp and didn't have same issue. He had skinny skis (less leverage) and a lower din

[markcjr]

Good info. Will check to see if the freedom SL is made out of the same plastic as the freedom RS

[Breomonkey]

I'm getting more and more interested in the tyrolia's above. The demos look like a great option in this space. Wonder how to get my hands on some of them?

[gregL]

Sth2 is WTR compatible. Did you mean. The older STH? If so, that's where my head is.

Both go high enough to fit most modern AT soles but neither are approved for ISO 9523

Don't the LOrds & Marker frame bindings adjust the afd?

Yes, but the Lords also have a unique "relocation" hinge - you set the toe in either the high or low position first and lock it with a bolt. The Sole.ID models have an AFD the moves forward for AT soles instead of rearward.

[XavierD]

STH2 is approved by Amer for function with WTR boots. If your (Amer) binding has MNC or WTR printed on the toe piece Salomon/Atomic will indemnify it if properly mounted and adjusted for any WTR boot or sole. WTR does not require a sliding AFD, by virtue of having a solid piece of plastic under the toe, it also skied better than a full rubber 9523 sole. I currently use my Lange WTR boots in my STH16s, they release properly.


The following bindings are avalible to work with any 9523 sole:
Tyrolia Aaatack 14 AT
Marker Lord
Marker Griffon ID, Jester ID
Salomon/Atomic Warden 13 MNC

In addition to the above list the following bindings will work with WTR boots:
Salomon/Atomic STH2 13/16
Look Pivot 12/14 Dual
Look SPX 12/14 Dual

[dkny2la]

STH2 is approved by Amer for function with WTR boots. If your (Amer) binding has MNC or WTR printed on the toe piece Salomon/Atomic will indemnify it if properly mounted and adjusted for any WTR boot or sole. WTR does not require a sliding AFD, by virtue of having a solid piece of plastic under the toe, it also skied better than a full rubber 9523 sole. I currently use my Lange WTR boots in my STH16s, they release properly.


The following bindings are avalible to work with any 9523 sole:
Tyrolia Aaatack 14 AT
Marker Lord
Marker Griffon ID, Jester ID
Salomon/Atomic Warden 13 MNC

In addition to the above list the following bindings will work with WTR boots:
Salomon/Atomic STH2 13/16
Look Pivot 12/14 Dual
Look SPX 12/14 Dual

One more to add to the list of bindings that will work with WTR boots:

Look Pivot 18 (Rossi FKS) with the new WTR AFD. You can get the WTR AFD from CAST Touring or directly from Rossi for about $35.

[eskido]

This is what phallic, Greg, and thom were referring to earlier in the thread. That's the route I'm taking with some inserts for touring binders as well so I only have to take one set of boots if I travel, not to mention I love the skis they're on so I want an alpine setup on them, but I'm a Pivot/FKS fan so it makes since for me. I believe I saw you post on that thread, so you've already seen DeeHubs very helpful info on that and I would encourage anyone going that route to check that LookWTR thread out.