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Thread: AWD and chains

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyg82 View Post
    If you're in the CR-V, put them on the front wheels. The AWD system in those really doesn't send much if anything to the rear.
    Regardless of the drive system you want them on the steer tires. What good does going forward do if you can't change directions? You want them to pull you in the direction you want to go, not right into a snow bank.
    "One season per year, the gods open the skies, and releases a white, fluffy, pillow on top of the most forbidding mountain landscapes, allowing people to travel over them with ease and relative abandonment of concern for safety. It's incredible."

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by guroo270 View Post
    Regardless of the drive system you want them on the steer tires.
    That is categorically untrue. Putting chains on the front of a RWD is (a) dumb, and (b) dangerous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  3. #28
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    For a quick get unstuck problem, just the front should work, but for prolonged driving they should be on all four. Just like you should change all four tires at the same time to keep wheel size the same. Having two larger front wheels due to chains is not good for the drive system. How long it takes to really be an issue is an open question I have never seen adequately answered.

    As for California regs, AWB with all season tires is adequate for R1 and R2 conditions, but you must carry chains, and yes, I have been checked. I suspect it was because I was driving an Audi TT, never been checked in my Outback. R3 conditions in California requires chains on all vehicles included 4WD and AWD. That said, CHP nearly always just closes the road before going R3.

    I agree it is a constitutional right for Americans to be assholes...its just too bad that so many take the opportunity...
    iscariot

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by riser3 View Post
    I know I am not the first person to say this. I still don't understand people who live in or regularly visit snow country and who do not run winter tires in the winter regardless of the number of drive wheels on their rig. And if you live somewhere like out west where it is possible to drive back and forth between snow and not snow in a couple of hours or less, then buy a good floor jack, an impact wrench, and mount the snow tires on aftermarket steel rims. As a bonus you will be able to find work with NASCAR in the summer.
    90% of the people (and maggots) who ski at Mammoth live in LA. That means 300-330 miles of desert driving and zero to 30 miles of snow. Snow tires are not a great option with those numbers. I drive mostly on all seasons, but do throw on snow tires when it gets really snowy (which due to 5 years of drought is not very often.)

    I agree it is a constitutional right for Americans to be assholes...its just too bad that so many take the opportunity...
    iscariot

  5. #30
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    I don't know much about AWD, seems like there would be a differential between the front and back, so power would go to easiest to spin wheel. If it has some kind of front/back limited slip, don't think you would want it working for long distance, so chains on all 4. 4x4, they go on the front until you get good and stuck...then all 4. We need to start a photo of your chains thread, I had some for my old truck with metal bars welded on each link, sexy.

  6. #31
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    Like this right?

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  7. #32
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    AWD and chains

    Just a data point, for some 4x4, the OM states back tires only (plus the spare). I believe this is due to space issues with IFS. An example is the Toyota Land Cruiser 100 series.

    Mammoth lakes is a shit show during storm day weekends, especially after the hill closes.... all them peeps with awd cars and all season tires cruising down icey roads....

  8. #33
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    True, but that is more to do with idiot LA drivers then the drive train or tires. Those idiots would make it a shit show no matter what the drive.

    I agree it is a constitutional right for Americans to be assholes...its just too bad that so many take the opportunity...
    iscariot

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    when you're stuck in AWD/4WD you're twice as stuck.
    Around here (CA), all cars including AWD and 4WD are supposed to carry chains but in 35 years of driving them I've never been checked. The only time I've ever seen R3 (4WD with chains only)--maybe twice in that period of time there was no place to go. Ski areas closed, stores closed. Only emergency vehicles needed to get anywhere. I do have a friend who has needed chains to get up his icy driveway in a Jeep Cherokee, and things get icy enough on Northwoods Blvd--a very steep main 2 lane road into a very large subdivision that it has to be closed (AWD doesn't help you slow down going downhill.) If I lived at the end of an unplowed mile long dirt road I would need chains, but I would also need a whole lot more ground clearance than my Suby's 9 inches. When you high center an AWD by driving in deep snow all the wheels stop turning.

    Hey goat....do you live in TD?
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  10. #35
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    AWD and chains

    Quote Originally Posted by LightRanger View Post
    That is categorically untrue. Putting chains on the front of a RWD is (a) dumb, and (b) dangerous.
    Hahaha. Well yeah, I guess that's true. I'd go all four on a rear wheel drive car, though. Hell I sold my RWD car when I moved to the snow. Wasn't thinking about that and got appropriately called out. Then again, if you drive a RWD car that's not rear engine in the snow without snow tires... not me.
    "One season per year, the gods open the skies, and releases a white, fluffy, pillow on top of the most forbidding mountain landscapes, allowing people to travel over them with ease and relative abandonment of concern for safety. It's incredible."

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by guroo270 View Post
    Hahaha. Well yeah, I guess that's true. I'd go all four on a rear wheel drive car, though. Hell I sold my RWD car when I moved to the snow. Wasn't thinking about that and got appropriately called out. Then again, if you drive a RWD car that's not rear engine in the snow without snow tires... not me.
    Actually the old Beetle was great in the snow for that very reason.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by guroo270 View Post
    Hahaha. Well yeah, I guess that's true. I'd go all four on a rear wheel drive car, though. Hell I sold my RWD car when I moved to the snow. Wasn't thinking about that and got appropriately called out. Then again, if you drive a RWD car that's not rear engine in the snow without snow tires... not me.
    I drive a RWD Tacoma to the snow for years and only out on chains when someone stopped me and made it happen. I've gone up and over icy passes. A lot has to do with knowing how to drive on snow. I grew up in upstate NY, so I had some practice as a kid.

    I was told not to put chains on my Subie, but only cables. To pretty much not increase tire size. In my 12 years of driving an outback I put chains on once, after a cooper stopped us on an icy uphill double fall line grade. Starting again, I had to put a chain on one tire to get started again, or I would have slid into the bank. Worse place ever to stop traffic.

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    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  14. #39
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    I've driven my Outback (equipped with Nokian Hakka R2 studless snows) has driven through hood deep snow (granted it was low density) and a whole litany of other gnarly winter weather conditions and it has been confidence inspiring. If the roads are truly bad enough that the aforementioned setup isn't enough, I'm packing another bowl and staying home.

    Modern studless snows are stellar in most situations, and handle ice well. There are only a handful of places where studded snow tires make more sense, and if you live in one of those places, you're aware of it.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by riser3 View Post
    I know I am not the first person to say this. I still don't understand people who live in or regularly visit snow country and who do not run winter tires in the winter regardless of the number of drive wheels on their rig. And if you live somewhere like out west where it is possible to drive back and forth between snow and not snow in a couple of hours or less, then buy a good floor jack, an impact wrench, and mount the snow tires on aftermarket steel rims. As a bonus you will be able to find work with NASCAR in the summer.
    I've done the SF-Tahoe drive more times than I care to count, and am about to do it a shitload more with kids in the ski race (every weekend!) program. I've done it in crapped-out SUVs, low-clearance Audis, and now an earth-killing diesel SUV, every time with AWD and all-season tires. I've never had to chain up, and also have never had an issue with traction, or lack thereof. Part of it, to be sure, is that CalTrans closes 80 if there's any icing going on, but I've driven through blinding storms at 3 AM with a couple inches of snow on the road without traction problems. There's some luck involved, but there's also some judgment. As long as you don't drive too fast for conditions, you'll be okay.

    Also, if you pay attention to what all season tire you buy, you can get some with decent traction. I just put on a set of Bridgestone Dueler 422s and drove through 2 feet of freshly-fallen snow on top of an icy road surface to get to a trailhead. Worked just fine.

  16. #41
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    AWD and chains

    Quote Originally Posted by Tippster View Post
    Actually the old Beetle was great in the snow for that very reason.
    Correct. The old beetle snow commercials were great.

    My hatred for no season tires comes from buying a set of Michelin all seasons with the snow flake certified tires. They were the worst in all situations. I think they were Michelin primacy mxv4's if I'm not mistaken. Wouldn't want any mag to make that mistake.
    "One season per year, the gods open the skies, and releases a white, fluffy, pillow on top of the most forbidding mountain landscapes, allowing people to travel over them with ease and relative abandonment of concern for safety. It's incredible."

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by FormerKnuckleDragger View Post
    I've done the SF-Tahoe drive more times than I care to count, and am about to do it a shitload more with kids in the ski race (every weekend!) program. I've done it in crapped-out SUVs, low-clearance Audis, and now an earth-killing diesel SUV, every time with AWD and all-season tires. I've never had to chain up, and also have never had an issue with traction, or lack thereof. Part of it, to be sure, is that CalTrans closes 80 if there's any icing going on, but I've driven through blinding storms at 3 AM with a couple inches of snow on the road without traction problems. There's some luck involved, but there's also some judgment. As long as you don't drive too fast for conditions, you'll be okay.

    Also, if you pay attention to what all season tire you buy, you can get some with decent traction. I just put on a set of Bridgestone Dueler 422s and drove through 2 feet of freshly-fallen snow on top of an icy road surface to get to a trailhead. Worked just fine.
    What you are saying is that you've never driven one of those vehicles with snow tires and have never experienced the difference, especially in slowing down.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodywhomper View Post
    What you are saying is that you've never driven one of those vehicles with snow tires and have never experienced the difference, especially in slowing down.
    Nor have I used a snow cat to take the family up to Tahoe, which would undoubtedly give me amazing stopping power. But my solutions have worked for 20 years of driving up and down the mountain, so I'm not sure it's necessary to invest in an entirely separate set of wheels/tires. If you want the peace of mind and don't mind burning through snow tires every 20,000 miles, then by all means.

  19. #44
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    I hear you and have driven in snow longer than you, accident free (knock on wood), both with and without snow tires. 22 yrs without snow tires, before trying them. But there is a remarkable difference.

    someday the silly state law in CA will catch up.

    yesterday evening, I saw a 4x4 slide down their driveway onto hwy 89. It was all good because there was no traffic in the lane that they stopped in.....

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodywhomper View Post
    I hear you and have driven in snow longer than you, accident free (knock on wood), both with and without snow tires. 22 yrs without snow tires, before trying them. But there is a remarkable difference.

    someday the silly state law in CA will catch up.

    yesterday evening, I saw a 4x4 slide down their driveway onto hwy 89. It was all good because there was no traffic in the lane that they stopped in.....
    Was it a blue Cayenne, just north of the Pole Creek/Silver Peak access parking area? If so, we saw that guy sideways, hanging over the edge of the driveway, and calling for a tow truck around Thanksgiving.

    My in-laws, who live in Reno, have snows (some studded, even) on their cars. I've driven their cars and appreciate the amazing traction that studs give, but didn't really think snows were leaps and bounds better in deep, uncompacted snow. Snow tires are undoubtedly better in icy conditions, and when navigating steeper terrain, than all season M+S tires. But Caltrans shuts down 80 pretty quick in those conditions, and we time our drives around the worst of the weather and conditions. If I lived up there and had ample garage space, it would be a no-brainer. But it's hard to contemplate going through $1000 of snow tires in a season (a 5,000 pound SUV absolutely murders tires).

  21. #46
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    FKD, look into Cooper ATWs for your next set. Discussed in other thread. BW and I are both running them on Toyota SUVs. Good stuff so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  22. #47
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    not a cayenne, but in that zone of 89. it was a full sized pick-up.

    refer to the "truck tire time" thread in tech talk about the A/T and "all weather" tires that have the severe snow rating but higher wear. not the same as a pure snow tire, but quantitatively better than an all season or non-snowflake AT tire.

    xxx-er has countless posted the argument that the extra cost for constantly wearing through snow tires is just part of the insurance and should be considered as part of that metric.

    my observation for CA is that it's often the around town, cruising the parking lot, going down a hill on a road at non-highway speed, needing to come to a relatively sudden stop on a blind-ish corner on ice when shit is cold, when siped/silicon compound snow tires mean the difference, often where the road is not getting much use or chewed up from chains. with i-80 closure, i've had some pretty awesome drives drifting down (with snow tires) a single-lane 40 w/ no other cars in sight.

    i have several friends (i'm sure many of us have friends in the same situation) that get new all season tires before the ski season for their awd or 4wd vehicles; use them on many storm days driving to and from the bay or sac area, having decades of non-incident snow driving experience; are creeping along at 30 or 35 on a road like hwy 88, on a mix of dry pavement and ice; make a turn; see red lights from an accident ahead of them; hit their brakes and slide for 100's of feet (downhill) into the car ahead of them (or a soft snowbank if they're lucky). it's difficult to know in those incidents if winter tires (or chains/cables) would have helped, but that was the only thing my friends were "doing wrong".

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by hutash View Post

    As for California regs, AWB with all season tires is adequate for R1 and R2 conditions, but you must carry chains, and yes, I have been checked. I suspect it was because I was driving an Audi TT, never been checked in my Outback. R3 conditions in California requires chains on all vehicles included 4WD and AWD. That said, CHP nearly always just closes the road before going R3.
    Never seen R3 on the freeway. R3 within the basin twice in 40 years. However, driving around neighborhoods, etc, you could encounter R3 conditions when the main roads are posted R1 or R2. Almost got stuck last year trying to dodge the avy control closure on Alpine Meadows Rd by driving through the neighborhood. Served me right--by the time I got back to AM road traffic was moving again and I wound up losing time.
    Quote Originally Posted by irul&ublo View Post
    Hey goat....do you live in TD?
    Donner Lake

    Quote Originally Posted by Tippster View Post
    Actually the old Beetle was great in the snow for that very reason.
    So was my old Pinto--with 360# of sand in the trunk and snows.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FormerKnuckleDragger View Post
    But it's hard to contemplate going through $1000 of snow tires in a season (a 5,000 pound SUV absolutely murders tires).
    Cheaper than a new bumper - which is a best case scenario IF anything does happen. I don't know, I understand kinda sorta. I drove to Kirkwood a lot on all season tires and was taught how to drive in snow by my grandpa that lived up there. If you know what you're doing and are responsible it's completely feasible. If other lives were in the car, though, I just wouldn't risk it these days after knowing what I know.
    "One season per year, the gods open the skies, and releases a white, fluffy, pillow on top of the most forbidding mountain landscapes, allowing people to travel over them with ease and relative abandonment of concern for safety. It's incredible."

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by guroo270 View Post
    You mean no season tires? How's your Line Prophet 90's quiver of one treating you?
    Don't make me check the spare bootlicker.

    I just drove from ID to CA in Mrs Snapt's CRV with more snow than not on the roads and all seasons as she hadn't swapped the snows on yet and it was surprisingly fine. When I was day tripping to Tahoe AWD and M/S rated tires never let me down with sensical driving. Of course I run snows in the winter now, but if it comes down to chains fuck that, just get a good enough all season and take her slow if the commute combines dry roads and snow.

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