My DH boots are 18 years old, any advances in DH boot tech I'm missing?

[garyfromterrace]

So I've got some red Nordica Beasts. They're ancient. But they still ski fine. They're comfy.. Probably have at least 500 days. I don't really want to buy new DH boots but am I missing something?
I've probably gone through 4 touring boots in this same timeline, and my existing zero 4's ski so much better than my original Nordica TR 9's. Was there the same jump in DH boot performance?

Thanks, figured you guys would know....

[Flyoverland Captive]

That's 18 years of plastic fatigue... I'd start shopping.

I once had the whole heel of a 12-year-old boot tear completely off after hitting a mogul; it stayed in my binding on the ski, which luckily stayed on the mogul, since the brake couldn't deploy. Scary.

[abraham]

Yeah the plastic can shatter over time. I've seen it once but it's a mildly terrifying thought to not trust the integrity of your boot.
A poster on here had a story about someone cracking both boot soles off

[galibier_numero_un]

Happened to me as well. A pair of 1984-ish Nordicas. They were sitting unused for some 12 years. I decided to try them out, in about 2002. As I buckled them up in the parking lot, they began to literally flake apart.

... Thom

[Flyoverland Captive]

^^^ Yep, these were 1984-ish Cabers (rebranded Nordicas, I think.)

[doebedoe]

I watched my mother, who isn't an aggressive skier, walk out of her bindings with the boot soles still in them last year. 12 or 13 year old nordicas. It's time for new boots for safety reasons.

[Timberridge]

Fortunately Nordica still makes red boots, so you won't need a new outfit.

[babybear]

I'm surprised your soles aren't hammered. that was the biggest reason I had to get new ski boots.

Gary you putting cat tracks on those things in the parking lot??

[Mofro261]

G, no you are not missing any thing. Alpine boot tech hasn't changed much at all, form fit function. Sizing changed a bit as liners became lower profile, but I'd still be rolling my Technica icon alu comps if I could have found another pair of replacement liners.

[undertow2]

I'm surprised your soles aren't hammered. that was the biggest reason I had to get new ski boots.

Gary you putting cat tracks on those things in the parking lot??

My thought exactly... I finally broke down and bought some Cat Tracks as I am absolutely destroying my heels on my Sollie XMax 130s... I am now going to be "one of those guys"... I love the boots and even bought a backup pair so am now going to try and stop the sole destruction...

[TAFKALVS]

Are you wanting a true alpine boot? Ie a full on race boot like a Lange RS or Head RD? if so what mofro said is true other than changes in stance and maybe flex pattern.

However a new class of boot has become popular - "freeride". These boots have similar fit to the race boots but lighter weight plastic, replaceable rubber soles, cushy liners and softer boot boards, all of which make the boot a little nicer for general resort performance. Probably have 95% of the power that the equivalent race boot has.

Also stance in new alpine boots is more relaxed and neutral to better match modern skis that are softer and rockered. Plus the flex pattern tends to get progressively stiff instead of being a wall at the top.

[Shredhead]

T9's sucked balls. The only way your alpine boots could be that bad, is if you used the Nava System.

[gregL]

paging gregL

Generally alpine boots have gotten lighter, have less forward lean, and are softer than they were 18 years ago.

Plastics have progressed and manufacturers have selectively thinned the shells, as well as shaping them more like a human foot. Forward lean has gone from an average of 14-18 degrees to more like 11-15 degrees. A boot that claims a 130 flex today is nowhere near as stiff as a ten year old boot that was supposed to be a 130. Liners are lighter, generally all with some form of thermo-moldability, and are warmer.

The more upright stance works for the new generation of skis which for the most part don't require tip pressure to turn - it also gives your quads and lower back a break and lets you ski longer without getting worked. It might require some revision of your technique, however.

This year's new crop of freeride boots are significantly lighter than before, which is nice in tight sidecountry terrain but may not matter for railing groomers at speed. Most of the "crossover" category either come with rockered grip soles or have the option to add them, which is nice for booting to remote lines or crossing icy parking lots.

The thinner shells tend to be easier to work on, though it usually takes the form of punching rather than grinding. Most shells respond to heat molding (not just Salomon and Atomic).

None of this necessarily means you'll ski better, though.

[smooth operator]

None of this necessarily means you'll ski better, though.

wait, what?
fuck....

[Muggydude]

I'd argue simply having more comfortable/warm feet, and the upright stance w/ less quad and back strain will improve your skiing by the fact you're not in pain.

Course I'm sure older boots were warm/not painful for plenty of people. Definitely not me

[CaliBrit]

Last year I replaced my X-Waves from 2001. They still skied great but the heel was worn to the point that retention in some bindings was dubious. New boots (Cochise) ski great, but not really better.

[galibier_numero_un]

We went off the rails discussing exploding boots, albeit for a good reason.

I took about an 8 year time out from ski acquisition madness, and when I returned to the game in the Fall of 2014, I was needless to say, quite surprised with the current generation of skis.

Working from this context of old school skis, I had difficulty buying into boots with a more upright stance - especially since I still engage the front of my boots. I'm coming to understand how these boots are designed to work with current skis, however (even for people who still drive their tips). I come from a generation where ski racers used to shave down their boot soles to get closer to the ski, and had boots with higher ramp angles and more forward lean.

As I was flexing various boots in the shop, I drew on kinesthetic memory of being on skis, and the flatter and more upright stance made sense in the context of the skis I've been skiing the past three years (Atomic Automatics, Praxis GPOs, ON3P Billygoats).

I'll report back in the Lange XT 130 Freetour thread (the boots I ended up with) on how I respond to this new stance if and when it snows, but I think that Leavenworth and GregL nailed it with their comments, so provisionally put me in the camp that the new generation of boots are an "improvement" in the context of working with new skis.

Cheers,
Thom

[garyfromterrace]

Awesome guys (and gals) thanks!

I'm surprised your soles aren't hammered. that was the biggest reason I had to get new ski boots.
Gary you putting cat tracks on those things in the parking lot??

Here's something cool that I only realized because you mention it. So these babies skied 98% of their days at Shames. What that meant was:
- so much snow you're almost always walking on snow from car to put the skis on place
- so few vehicles (relatively speaking) that your walk was never far.
Yeah they're beat up a bit, but not that bad. No issues with boot binding interface that's for sure. I'm not concerned with these blowing up in the least.

G, no you are not missing any thing. Alpine boot tech hasn't changed much at all, form fit function. Sizing changed a bit as liners became lower profile, but I'd still be rolling my Technica icon alu comps if I could have found another pair of replacement liners.

Which is the absolute root of my question. Thanks mofro! If there's no compelling reason to change em out, why do it? I honestly do not think that safety is a factor here.

Are you wanting a true alpine boot? Ie a full on race boot like a Lange RS or Head RD? if so what mofro said is true other than changes in stance and maybe flex pattern.

Also stance in new alpine boots is more relaxed and neutral to better match modern skis that are softer and rockered. Plus the flex pattern tends to get progressively stiff instead of being a wall at the top.

So I plan on racing super G, DH and probably a bit of GS. I'm thinking these boots (which have probably done 30 downhills and 7 or 8 days of speed skiing) will continue to do just fine.

Generally alpine boots have gotten lighter, have less forward lean, and are softer than they were 18 years ago.
Plastics have progressed and manufacturers have selectively thinned the shells, as well as shaping them more like a human foot. Forward lean has gone from an average of 14-18 degrees to more like 11-15 degrees. A boot that claims a 130 flex today is nowhere near as stiff as a ten year old boot that was supposed to be a 130. Liners are lighter, generally all with some form of thermo-moldability, and are warmer.

The more upright stance works for the new generation of skis which for the most part don't require tip pressure to turn - it also gives your quads and lower back a break and lets you ski longer without getting worked. It might require some revision of your technique, however.

This year's new crop of freeride boots are significantly lighter than before, which is nice in tight sidecountry terrain but may not matter for railing groomers at speed. Most of the "crossover" category either come with rockered grip soles or have the option to add them, which is nice for booting to remote lines or crossing icy parking lots.

The thinner shells tend to be easier to work on, though it usually takes the form of punching rather than grinding. Most shells respond to heat molding (not just Salomon and Atomic).

None of this necessarily means you'll ski better, though..

Some interesting comments GregL. So these boots are plenty soft (they have a dial that I can change flex a bit), so I don't want softer especially since I'm going to race with them. I like a forward stance (nother reason to keep the oldies). If I want to do side country my boots are fine, if I'm going to tour, then I use touring boots. AND if they aint going to make me ski better fuck it.

wait, what?
fuck....

Great one dude, I laughed!!

Last year I replaced my X-Waves from 2001. They still skied great but the heel was worn to the point that retention in some bindings was dubious. New boots (Cochise) ski great, but not really better.

Again, kind of what I was wondering about.

So I keep the red Beasts, and don't have to get a new suit!!

Thanks mags.

[TAFKALVS]

Wait, they're red? Definitely the right choice. Red is fast.

[auvgeek]

they have a dial that I can change flex a bit

Radical, dude.

Seems like you need new boots, which I do understand is a pain. I hate getting new boots. But I think you'll find a new "race" boot will flex better than your old ones, regardless of advances in materials. 18 years is a long time, and plastic fatigues and gets softer (eventually it fails, but that's been covered). There are plenty of stiff boots with forward lean on the market: Atomic Redster, Head B3, Dalbello DRS, etc. Stay away from Lange unless you want to try upright and softer.

Might as well try some on and see how they feel, right?

[XXX-er]

I'm surprised your soles aren't hammered. that was the biggest reason I had to get new ski boots.

Gary you putting cat tracks on those things in the parking lot??

Like G sez you don't wear out DIN soles at small areas with small plots and lots of snow, so normally catracks are not necessary, I did buy some at whistler for all that walking on pavement

I wonder if the plastic is better now days than it was?

[turnfarmer]

Any chance of a boot failure like discussed at GS speeds would make me nervous. At DH speeds the thought of walking out of a binding with the boot sole left in the binding would turn me into quivering pile of goo.

[garyfromterrace]

OK you fucker. Now you've got me thinking...
Thanks!

[Norseman]

Gary, have you bothered to fondle new boots? Or even *gasp* try some on or do a shell fit to see what your stable looks like? You're a big rich flatlander now... walk into the shop and demand satisfaction.

[TAFKALVS]

OK you fucker. Now you've got me thinking...
Thanks!

The most old schooliest and race oriented boot is the Head Raptor/B3. I'd start there if you want racey.