SkiMo Racing

[P.A.B.C.]

I am going to spend the winter in Utah this year, and as an ex-competitive runner and a current backcountry skier, the idea of SkiMo racing seems appealing.

Is there anybody that has competed? What type of gear would be good to start with? How do people normally train? Any other insights?

Thanks.

[skiitsbetter]

It's pretty addicting if you keep improving. You could try racing on your backcountry setup, see where you are slotting into the pack (if you're up with people on race stuff, you're probably quick) and if you enjoy it, splurge on the gear that will shave tens of minutes off your times.

I guess the Utah/Colorado scenes are quite deep, but a 1kg ski, 1kg boot setup would still be quite competitive (and versatile for non-racing) in the midpack here in Canada.

Or you could jump right in, check out skimo.co. No need for carbon boots, unless you have the money. Besides, resale on this stuff is actually pretty good, and it's kindof fun using the stuff for big link-ups in the spring.

Train by going skiing and pounding out laps. Yup, that's pretty awesome!

[mall walker]

check out http://utahskimo.org/

also yeah, skimo.co ftw. afaik there is a rec division in the local race series "Wasatch Powder Keg" (their FB group seems to be the authoritative source of info)

[glademaster]

I'm going to pistol whip the next asshole who says "skimo."

[PNWbrit]

Shoot Jonathan S. a private message.

[Mantana1]

If you enjoy skinning/skiing, aerobic suffering and competition then skimo is awesome.

Get involved with the night racing series at Brighton with the lightest gear you have. If you like it, then invest in lighter/race gear. You could probably meet folks with used gear they are willing to sell.

Note - if on a budget, I would recommend race boots before race skis since you can use the race boots for long tours and traverses (possible but unlikely with a race ski) and the performance benefit from race boots is much greater than that of race skis.

Good resources:
http://www.skimolife.com/journal/cat...skimo-training
http://www.skintrack.com

[Jonathan S.]

I'm going to pistol whip the next asshole who says "skimo."

Okay, I do understand your reaction to that term, but do you have an alternative name for the sport?
The major European venues get into "true" ski mountaineering, and sometimes a U.S. Western race does too (e.g., Crested Butte with that "Guides Ridge" or whatever it was called).
But almost all the North American races are just skinning (although sometimes tricky, yet still no ski crampons) and some booting (although sometimes very steep, yet still no boot crampons).
So "skimo" as an abbreviation of "ski mountaineering" seems to make sense, since the sport is kind of an abbreviation of "real" ski mountaineering.
We used to call it rando racing, and I still call my series that since it predates the common use of skimo.

What type of gear would be good to start with? How do people normally train? Any other insights?

In general, my answer would be, it depends.
And in general, I would usually agree with some of the get-your-toes-wet advice here.
But in your particular case:

Already know how to ski
+
Already know about skinning
+
Already have a competitive aerobic background
+
Moving to the region that is tied (with New England, oddly enough) for the second-best (after CO) skimo scene in North America
+
Moving to the region with the leading specialty retailer for this gear
= GO FOR IT!!!!!!!

Building on the links I have here:
http://nerandorace.blogspot.com/p/ge...endations.html

• Email me for a detailed spreadsheet of the pending Skintrack.com gear comparison pages (which will soon include packs and ISMF-approved dual-cert helmets).
• Don't worry much about different race ski models, as they're all so similar now, so just get a deal on a model from last year.
• Ditto for bindings.
• The differences among skin brands are somewhat mysterious, and make for endless debates as well as post-race glide contests, but there is something compelling about just buying 300cm of hot pink Pomoca and making your own attachments.
• Boots, only three companies make race models. The price-point boots are good enough, i.e., Alien 0.0, PDG, Syborg. But the pricier cf Alien 1.0 and Dynafit EVO definitely ski better and are lighter. Much smaller incremental benefit though for much higher incremental cost of the unobtainium models, i.e., Alien 3.0 and Stratos Hi-Cube. (A few deals floating around on the previously unobtanium Stratos Cube. The even older Stratos Evo though isn't any lighter than the Alien 1.0 or Dynafit EVO, even though it also has a carbon lower shell. And you really don't want to hear me complain about the PG bsl consistency, toe height, toe width, and toe sockets -- my pair last year was okay after a modest amount of work, but I have three other pairs now to prep, and I've already given up on one after hours of work.)
• And not only is boot weight more important (kind of like wheel weight for bikes), but some of us use our race boots for all our backcountry touring. So worth spending more $ on lighter stiffer race boots (i.e., as opposed to worrying about an ounce or two for bindings).
• Although regular running tights are okay for out East (combined with a skimo top), since your races actually have powder sometimes, better invest in a full suit or skimo pants/tights.

Okay, back to bracing myself for the eight pairs of race and near-race skis arriving later this week for mounting for everyone out here, ugh!

[Jonathan S.]

Oh yeah, how do people normally train.

Well, I suspect the best answer is probably not to waste time creating increasingly elaborate maps and spreadsheets for course layouts, mounting other racers' bindings, and posting on the internet.
And this probably isn't a good use of your $:
https://www.facebook.com/NERandoRace...77535995620978
(Note that the link might be NSFW, since you'll probably laugh out loud.)

So seriously, obviously your aerobic base is hugely important, as is sport-specific training (i.e., lots of vertical once you have snow, in full skimo-mode, including fast transitions, and sustained descents w/o stopping).
Strength is less important, but some descents can be intense thigh-burners, bombing ungroomed terrain on skinny skis in a hypoxic state. So you don't want to be an anorexic runner!

Trail running in particular is very popular among many top skimo racers, and skimo is attracting many crossover athletes from trail running.
For biking, I split my time between road and mtn, although I feel like mtn biking is closer to skimo in feel (although scientifically I could be wrong about that).

[skiitsbetter]

We used to call it rando racing, and I still call my series that since it predates the common use of skimo.

I've heard it called random-gay racing

[trogdortheburninator]

i tell my coworkers I do uphill-downhill ski racing ... I got into the hobby from a non-competitive background (backcountry skiing and climbing). The gains in my overall ski-ability and ski fitness have been significant. I liken the sport's effect on my skiing and objectives as similar to the effects of gym climbing on overall climbing standards. Very few people directly train to backcountry ski, and when you do it opens up some pretty unique opportunities.

Training wise: as much vert as your body can handle. In the summer I run (mostly hilly stuff) 5-6 (combo of tempos, intervals, long runs and recovery runs) days a week. In the ski season, 3-5 days skiing, 1-2 days running. I dont compromise as much as the top guys in terms of how I ski (top guys are pretty exclusively focused training during and leading up to race season). I do a bit of resort skinning in the early season when the backcountry is showing grim coverage. I combine with maybe 1 ski-interval workout a week after work. Otherwise, I just go out and ski good snow and fun lines. Ski as much as you can, and make an effort to go out and ski on your race gear, especially early season.

To echo JS, if you are just looking to get a workout in the winter, any touring gear will be fine. At least in CO, no matter how fit you are, you will not be competitive on a non-race setup. If you want to be competitive, or know how you stack up, you need a full race setup. Sale skis are becoming more common now. Expect to spend around $400 a pair on sale. You wont find sale race boots until end of season, so maybe look used. $400 used in good shape for an alien or pdg. Bindings are the hardest to get cheap. Expect to pay close to full retail ($400). You can cut corners with a speed turn, but you will ultimately regret it for the added weight and slower transition.

[Norseman]

Poking the (skinny) bear here... Is it possible to ski with power, fluidity, and grace on skimo gear?

I want to believe that it is... but I've never seen a randocommando making turns that looked any fun. Somebody post a clip of a skimo guy linking fast turns downhill to prove me wrong.

[mall walker]

Poking the (skinny) bear here... Is it possible to ski with power, fluidity, and grace on skimo gear?

I want to believe that it is... but I've never seen a randocommando making turns that looked any fun. Somebody post a clip of a skimo guy linking fast turns downhill to prove me wrong.

I don't personally see too many people using race gear outside of races or obvious training for races (skinning inbounds on groomers at a resort in the dark or something) so I suspect the answer is "not really"... although some of the lighter non-race gear you can get is pretty good. It's a compromise, I think TGR is a bit on the "189 Billygoats w/Guardians" side of things more of the time, which has its drawbacks as well...

edit: though this looks fun, dunno about power and grace though:

[trogdortheburninator]

A really good skier can make it look good. It gets a lot easier if you sub in a 1 kg ski. You may not see it in a race setting often, but certainly when training. Many of the top CO racers can dabble as pretty elite free-skiers. I've watched a friend ski rando-skinnies switch at 30 mph with great style.

Below is a friend that is an ex alpine racer, cert-guide and ripping skier on pure race gear.

[XXX-er]

Poking the (skinny) bear here... Is it possible to ski with power, fluidity, and grace on skimo gear?

I want to believe that it is... but I've never seen a randocommando making turns that looked any fun. Somebody post a clip of a skimo guy linking fast turns downhill to prove me wrong.

How much do you care to compromise? The super light BC skis they are pretty fucking light and they turn

I got a set of denalis that carve pretty good slalom turns, the early rise is good in pow and they feel like nothing on yer feet

we had an ultra runner/intermediate level skier come here to an event and his conditioning was simple y fucking amazing going up and his big challenge was skiing downhill

[Mantana1]

Poking the (skinny) bear here... Is it possible to ski with power, fluidity, and grace on skimo gear?

I want to believe that it is... but I've never seen a randocommando making turns that looked any fun. Somebody post a clip of a skimo guy linking fast turns downhill to prove me wrong.

check out this video from about 3:00 to 3:30. john and max are two of the best downhill skiers on race gear.
https://vimeo.com/158343890

[Jonathan S.]

Poking the (skinny) bear here... Is it possible to ski with power, fluidity, and grace on skimo gear?

I want to believe that it is... but I've never seen a randocommando making turns that looked any fun. Somebody post a clip of a skimo guy linking fast turns downhill to prove me wrong.

In a race, you'd better not be skiing with fluidity and grace -- no style points for that!

Although here I am in a backcountry race (Dynafit EVO boots, Dynafit LTR "1.0" bindings, Hagan X-Race skis), so judge for yourself:





Here is Colorado racer Brian E. catching some air at our camp the evening before setting out for the summit of Glacier Peak -- Scarpa Alien 1.0, Sportiva-rebranded ATK bindings, and the older non-rockered Hagan X-Race:








And the following afternoon, here is Michael Hagen (Scarpa Alien 1.0, Dynafit LTR, and his near-namesake Hagan X-Race skis), long after we had left the nice snow higher up and were down into some manky junk:

I don't personally see too many people using race gear outside of races or obvious training for races (skinning inbounds on groomers at a resort in the dark or something) so I suspect the answer is "not really"... although some of the lighter non-race gear you can get is pretty good. It's a compromise [...]

Race boots and race bindings, yes -- that's all that many of us ever use now.
Race skis, well ... I use them for lots of resort training, and sometimes for a really long late-season tour (especially with lots of dry hiking to & from the snow) in totally consolidated conditions.
But otherwise, just a little bit more waist width makes a big difference.

Here I am in the SW Chutes, with Alien 1.0 boots, Plum 165 bindings, Hagan Cirrus skis:





Mt W NE Snowfield with Dynafit-rebranded PG boots, Dynafit LTR bindings, Movement Big Fish-X skis (different lighting conditions reflect different days):








Dropping from Snowdome down onto the Eliot (Trab Magico):

[Jonathan S.]

My fellow middle-aged family man and consultant (albeit architecture, not economics), on Dynafit EVO race boots, Dynafit Speed Superlite “1.0" bindings, and Hagan Cirrus skis:








Ed W. (on the same day this spring in Mt W’s Great Gulf), former Air Force officer and former Denali speed record holder (broken by Kilian), on Dynafit EVO race boots, Dynafit SSL 1.0 bindings, and Dynafit PDG skis:








Mid-May of 2015 (i.e., when the NE actually had snow), Dr Josh getting in the last Oakes Gulf turns of the season (which was never really skiable for all of 2016, sigh) amidst tight confines on Dynafit EVO race boots, Dynafit Low Tech Race “0.0" bindings, and older non-rockered Hagan X-Race skis:

[TrueNorth]

Check out my gear swap ad -- it's getting no attention from the crowd over there.
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...nts-Goode-skis

[TrueNorth]

Okay, I do understand your reaction to that term, but do you have an alternative name for the sport?

The Dynafit website calls it "ski running", which seems like a more accurate description.

For example on this page http://www.dynafit.com/us/pdg-boot-1-1.html "Train up for the next race with the PDG Ski Running boot"

[bfree]

The boots are what makes powerful skiing tough. I have a pair of Dynafit EVOs that I picked up for stupid cheap, and enjoy them on long spring outings and for the annual Alpental Vertfest. But they really do ski poorly. Reasonably stiff once you've engaged the carbon, but so much slop. I think they might have been better when they were new but I've beat the piss out of them by now. I'll still straightline Sessel at 45+mph during the race, but even that's still hardly considered powerful or graceful.

[Jonathan S.]

The Dynafit website calls it "ski running", which seems like a more accurate description.[...]

But if only we were really able to skin at a true running pace.
(On really low-angle terrain, yes, but otherwise, sadly no.)

The boots are what makes powerful skiing tough. I have a pair of Dynafit EVOs that I picked up for stupid cheap, and enjoy them on long spring outings and for the annual Alpental Vertfest. But they really do ski poorly. Reasonably stiff once you've engaged the carbon, but so much slop. I think they might have been better when they were new but I've beat the piss out of them by now. I'll still straightline Sessel at 45+mph during the race, but even that's still hardly considered powerful or graceful.

Okay, maybe Captain Obvious here, but:

Any slop in the cuff rivet/pivot?
If so, Dynafit/Salewa in Boulder repressing them for free, and pays returning shipping.
(You pay only shipping to them.)

Also, retie the upper cuff cord (using a double fisherman, not the original sheet bend) so that the tightness is as much as you can possibly suffer through.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I'm going to pistol whip the next asshole who says "skimo."

Okay, I do understand your reaction to that term, but do you have an alternative name for the sport?

Maybe for the race series stuff they could call it "Extreme XC". I imagine there is already a pretty large cross over from the nordic crowd.

[glademaster]

Okay, I do understand your reaction to that term, but do you have an alternative name for the sport?

My issue is that the term doesn't describe the sport accurately at all, but I was also paraphrasing Super Troopers, not displaying legitimate indignation. The vast majority of "skimo" races involve zero mountaineering, that is the biggest issue I have with it. Backcountry skiing isn't mountaineering, it isn't alpinism, and running uphill on glorified cross country skis in a body condom sure as shit isn't mountaineering. I refer to it as randonee racing, and no, I don't say "rando racing." I am not into the whole brevity thing.

[jetski]

Strange little sub genre of the awesome sport of skiing. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with mountaineering from what I have seen. Skinning up a ski hill and down an open run definitely seems like randonee racing as Glademaster stated. Skimo is a funny way to describe it. Guess you have to call it something and it looks like people are into it and are having fun.
How cool would it be if it really was Ski Mountaineering Racing... "That mountain up there, skin up and high five the heli-pilot and charge down. Heres the most relevent snow-pack /weather info annnnd GO!" (Actually that sounds dangerous!! )
Time the decent for new sub sub genre and call it Skimo-duro!

[trogdortheburninator]

Strange little sub genre of the awesome sport of skiing. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with mountaineering from what I have seen. Skinning up a ski hill and down an open run definitely seems like randonee racing as Glademaster stated. Skimo is a funny way to describe it. Guess you have to call it something and it looks like people are into it and are having fun.
How cool would it be if it really was Ski Mountaineering Racing... "That mountain up there, skin up and high five the heli-pilot and charge down. Heres the most relevent snow-pack /weather info annnnd GO!" (Actually that sounds dangerous!! )
Time the decent for new sub sub genre and call it Skimo-duro!

There are races like this in europe. Hit the checkpoints, otherwise you are on your own. Team format.

Plenty of the other euro races also have some decent climbing components. CB is the only real US option, maybe Bigsky and Taos to a lesser degree. Even outside of racing, ski mountaineering as a term is used pretty loosely. I'm not really sure how folks choose to define it or differentiate it from ski touring. I'm pretty sure i've done a bit of ski mountaineering in my life, but I suppose I could have been mistaken... Who knows...

By comparison, the skills involved in ski-mo racing cross over to ski mountaineering far better than competition climbing crosses over to alpine climbing. To large degree, skimo has more in common with ski mountaineering than comp climbing has with even outdoor sport climbing.