base structure specifically for spring schmooooooo?

**oftpiste** · 04-07-2016, 05:04 PM

Anyone have dedicate skis specially prepped for spring, wet, sticky snow with an especially holey/hydrophobic base structure? Seems like it might not be a bad idea.

If so, what are the specifics of your base prep? or is it just a dumb idea?

**Lindahl** · 04-07-2016, 05:11 PM

On this same note, is a coarse/spring base structure really that slow in midwinter intermountain cold snow, fresh as well as groomed? Wondering if it makes sense to run a coarse structure 24/7 for those that rarely base grind.

**GeezerSteve** · 04-07-2016, 05:28 PM

XC ski racers sometimes rill the base then go unwaxed for wet sucky snow conditions. I've tried it with touring skis with better-than-wax results in the suck. ETA: The problem with rilling for spring touring is that it can invite pollen aka Cascade Black Klister.

Sucky snow is the one condition where fat fishscales often glide better than smooth-based skis.

**charles martel** · 04-07-2016, 05:35 PM

I had very large linear on FIS GS skis that just sucked them down and went straight. Mike at SkiMD put a nice GS cross hatch on them and they turned like butter.

**GeezerSteve** · 04-07-2016, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by charles martel

Mike at SkiMD put a nice GS cross hatch on them

With a rilling roller? That's common practice with serious XC ski racers.

**charles martel** · 04-07-2016, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Big Steve

With a rilling roller? That's common practice with serious XC ski racers.

No. I think he consulted Trump, though.

I know that he (Mike, not Trump) and Guras back in the day would stay up all night at a WC race to put a struture on by hand using a Scotch Brite.

I'm not sure handjobs are that big a deal these days.

**El Chupacabra** · 04-07-2016, 05:51 PM

Do these sorts of hand rilling tools work well? I've never tried any of them.

http://xcski.gearwest.com/c/structur...r-tools/393532

**powdrhound** · 04-07-2016, 06:10 PM

I use the Kirkwood rocks to give my skis spring structure. Just be going straight over them. Sideways grooves don't help as much.

**XXX-er** · 04-07-2016, 07:02 PM

I have some old Chinese made 2nd generation verdicts with a lot of deep base structure which I find slow in cold mid winter snow but not as slow when the temp gets warmer

**MESH** · 04-07-2016, 07:31 PM

I set the structure with a coarse ski visions base flattener stone use hertel spring solution.

**oftpiste** · 04-07-2016, 11:57 PM

FWIW, I'm not talking about terrain that will generate accumulations of tar and pine needles, and not XC. More of a lift-served kinda question as I was skiing at Whistler in 65+ temps today. For some reason everyone seems to pass me on the flats all the time.

I do own a ski-visions but not anything coarse that goes in it.

Like, what if you had someone put a REALLY coarse structure on a ski you'd really only ski in warm temps. Would be interesting to know if it could be skied year-round too, but really I'd just like to have a pair that was more resilient to that grabby thing that throws you into the back seat that we all hate.

Quiver geek, first world questions.

**oftpiste** · 04-08-2016, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Big Steve

Sucky snow is the one condition where fat fishscales often glide better than smooth-based skis.

is this a revelation?

**MESH** · 04-08-2016, 01:14 AM

I go coarse all season but that's at Alpental I'm not sure how it would work other places.

**lordf** · 04-08-2016, 01:16 AM

Hydrazorb dry slope wax cures a lot of Spring skiing issues. Not sure if it's sold in the states though but the uk dry slope lot love it, I carry a chunk as a rub on for spring days in the Alps.

**Shredhead** · 04-08-2016, 05:25 AM

Use 100 grit sandpaper and then get a stone grind next fall.

**AlpiNord** · 04-08-2016, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by oftpiste

FWIW, I'm not talking about terrain that will generate accumulations of tar and pine needles, and not XC. More of a lift-served kinda question as I was skiing at Whistler in 65+ temps today. For some reason everyone seems to pass me on the flats all the time.

I do own a ski-visions but not anything coarse that goes in it.

Like, what if you had someone put a REALLY coarse structure on a ski you'd really only ski in warm temps. Would be interesting to know if it could be skied year-round too, but really I'd just like to have a pair that was more resilient to that grabby thing that throws you into the back seat that we all hate.

Quiver geek, first world questions.

I've had good luck by using the Ski Visions coarse stone, harder base prep wax with LF over that. You can also add cross hatching with silicon carbide sandpaper. A rilling bar embosses the structure which will relax. A stone or sand paper abrades the base. You can reduce the structure using the steel blade OR use very hard wax and don't brush it out entirely if the temps get cold again and wet suction is not part of the equation.

**ogi** · 04-08-2016, 06:21 AM

For alpine/touring I don't, but for xc it's absolutely must. Things are so much more developed when it comes to this in XC then in alpine part, which is on one side also normal, as wax, structure and ski design plays much bigger role in XC then in alpine (touring is hardly market for anything of this), as you are sliding on skis without help of gravity for much longer. So in xc it's not just structure, but also ski design, as "warm" skis are structural completely different then "cold" skis.
In worse case, or if it's extra extra hot and wet, above mentioned structure tools do work (they make even bigger structure then stone grinding), but in general "just" proper ski, with coarse structure and lot of high fluoro waxes (and fluoro powders on top) does job. For alpine racing (basically DH only) they have different structures with HF waxes and overlays, while for GS/SL noone really bothers (on World cup level). For normal use, I wouldn't bother with really coarse warm structure, as it gets too aggressive as soon as snow changes to at least a bit colder. So if it's really that bad, try to invest some more money into low fluor waxes (HF are overkill for recreational use), and you should be fine there where gravity helps... for skinning up it doesn't matter anyway as you have skins on top of ptex.
PS: If you want to have at least sort of good gliding skis, avoid touching base with sand paper

**charles martel** · 04-08-2016, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by ogi

... For alpine racing (basically DH only) they have different structures with HF waxes and overlays, while for GS/SL noone really bothers (on World cup level)..

Interesting post, but I know WC tuners and racers do bother for GS & SL.

The proper base structure is essential in each event. Moreover, complex base structures, such as linear with both GS & SL cross hatches on the same ski, can be advantageous. (This sort of tuning is not found in most ski shops who employ minimally knowledgeable techs.)

**Lindahl** · 04-08-2016, 06:57 AM

So a riller bar will add non-permanent structure so that I won't need a base grind to get rid of it, next fall?

**ogi** · 04-08-2016, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by charles martel

Interesting post, but I know WC tuners and racers do bother for GS & SL.

The proper base structure is essential in each event. Moreover, complex base structures, such as linear with both GS & SL cross hatches on the same ski, can be advantageous. (This sort of tuning is not found in most ski shops who employ minimally knowledgeable techs.)

Maybe "don't bother" was a bit of exaggerating, but ski preparation for GS/SL is joke compared to ski preparation for speed events, and pretty much whole alpine is joke compared to this what's done in xc (I have actually been serviceman in world cup for quite a while). They of course "bother" and they do wax, but thing is, pretty much all WC tech races are on injected courses, which means pure ice, and on top of that, SL and GS skis are on edge most of the time, so there's very little effect of structure and wax (most tech skis have structure only in middle 4-5cm of ptex, as it makes it less aggressive when initiating turn and getting ski from one edge to the other.

Originally Posted by Lindahl

So a riller bar will add non-permanent structure so that I won't need a base grind to get rid of it, next fall?

It's is "non-permanent", as it's not really cut but pressed into ptex, but it still needs a bit of skiing, waxing and scrapping before it gets away completely.

sb · 04-08-2016, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by MESH

I set the structure with a coarse ski visions base flattener stone use hertel spring solution.

This is a good option.

I like to use my old brass riller bar, fine on one edge and coarse on the other. As stated before the Ptex will relax and go back to as before.

Hertels SS seems to really keep the pollen/dirt glop from sticking to the bases.

My rock skis have sum outstanding custom structure on them.

**oftpiste** · 04-11-2016, 01:50 PM

Maybe I suck at searching, but when I goole 'riller bar' I get virtually nothing. Even a search on SVST yields nada. What's a riller bar?

**Ottime** · 04-11-2016, 02:39 PM

Rock skis FTW. I have two pair that I really enjoy skiing anyway. So when it slows up in spring, I'm back on structure by nature. As phound pointed out, KW does a good job of prepping your bases for spring. Too bad they are closing the resort before it arrives this year.

**Mofro261** · 04-11-2016, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by oftpiste

Maybe I suck at searching, but when I goole 'riller bar' I get virtually nothing. Even a search on SVST yields nada. What's a riller bar?

it's an XC specific tool to impart pattern in a base, like this or similar:

https://www.reliableracing.com/detail.cfm?edp=10155216

**Yoyo** · 04-11-2016, 03:32 PM

I'm on the same quest as the OP, and just now learned what a riller bar is. Thanks Mofro!Is it possible to use these tools on alpine width skis?

I've tried 'rilling' some ancient and valueless skis using the teeth on the edge of a mill bastard file, and various types of sandpaper. Most recently I took it to the extreme (so far) and used a new 36 grit belt on a belt sander on one of a pair of skis. This did produce good sized striations in the base, but also hairy nasty burrs all over the surface. I had to use a scraper and finer sandpaper for seemingly hours to get a flat base with structure left in the base.

Skiing this pair of skis, one rilled and the other essentially flat, in conditions that included nice corn as well as the nasty suctiony stuff we all hate, I had trouble telling them apart. So what I believe I'm finding with structure is that the difference isn't all that great and only really important to XC skiers. Or, maybe the structure I'm getting is just not right in some way? The most striking change I've found to improve glide through sticky snow is narrow skis. I have moderm 95mm waisted skis, ancient 70mm straight skis, and a pair of nordic overland touring skis, 50mm. These skis are listed in order of slowest to fastest through suctiony snow.

So has anyone got experience using modern skimo skis in sticky spring conditions? These seem like a good thing to try, having very low surface area, but modern construction and a design not intended to inhibit turning?