ON3P SKIS Discussion

[kid-kapow]

I ended up skiing C&Ds today before switching to le 16/17 BGs. The latter is perhaps the best early season pow ski I have ever been on. C&Ds are great too.

I kinda regret not bringing the asyms to the party as well, but there is always next weekend.

I've always qualified BGasyms as being the best dense pow ski I have been on, but the 16/17 BGs might loose that qualifier. They might just be the best 116mm / sub 120mm pow ski I've been on full stop, or rather - the one that fits the best with how I like to ski this time of year / part of the season. Just soooo good.

I know I mentioned that I wanted to stop contributing to making this thread into a fanboii gushing fest, but shit - when something is good, then something is good. Believe the hype!

These deserve more plays - ON3Ps in action doing skiing that I can actually relate and aspire to

[ApexSkua]

Just finished 2 days at Crystal on my new BG110 Tour. They're awesome and just what I was looking for in a mid-fat touring ski. Two things I didnt love were the weight, I can see why the on3p peeps recommend the 50/50 layup if you are going to spend any amount of time in the resort. The other thing is on anything firm without bunches of soft sluff to smear around, they are incredibly squirrely and hard to manage. On the first night I set the edges to 1 and detuned a couple inches back from the widest points on the tip/tail. That helped a bit but they were still very unpleasant on the firmed up groomers. I was thinking about a BG118 for an inbounds pow ski, but if the firm snow performance is anything like the 110 tour, I have to reconsider. Maybe the Wildcat or MF118 would be more what I'm looking for?

[phatty]

Just finished 2 days at Crystal on my new BG110 Tour. They're awesome and just what I was looking for in a mid-fat touring ski. Two things I didnt love were the weight, I can see why the on3p peeps recommend the 50/50 layup if you are going to spend any amount of time in the resort. The other thing is on anything firm without bunches of soft sluff to smear around, they are incredibly squirrely and hard to manage. On the first night I set the edges to 1 and detuned a couple inches back from the widest points on the tip/tail. That helped a bit but they were still very unpleasant on the firmed up groomers. I was thinking about a BG118 for an inbounds pow ski, but if the firm snow performance is anything like the 110 tour, I have to reconsider. Maybe the Wildcat or MF118 would be more what I'm looking for?

The BG is not known for its firm snow performance. It's OK, but there are much better skis on firm. The BG118 is definitely better than previous versions. It still does not shine there.

[Reformed]

The other thing is on anything firm without bunches of soft sluff to smear around, they are incredibly squirrely and hard to manage. On the first night I set the edges to 1 and detuned a couple inches back from the widest points on the tip/tail. That helped a bit but they were still very unpleasant on the firmed up groomers. I was thinking about a BG118 for an inbounds pow ski, but if the firm snow performance is anything like the 110 tour, I have to reconsider. Maybe the Wildcat or MF118 would be more what I'm looking for?

I hate to say it, but double/triple check your tune and have a good look at your boots/bindings/ramp etc. Trying to drive a ski in touring boots with potentially janked up ramp angles can make any ski feel pretty terrible in challenging conditions. Potential set-up challenges aside, I haven't been on the BG110s, but I can't imagine they are significantly worse on firm than the the previous 108s and 116s. I have skied lots of very firm, very nasty spring conditions on my Steeple 108s and spent lots of days mobbing around on storm leftovers on my asym BGs and have never been put off by their firm snow performance. Inspiring? No. Scary/difficult? Definitely not. If it's at all soft both skis will dig in and carve a ~30 metre radius turn for as long as you want to stand on them. If it's truly hard/loud they won't dig in, but they slarve and slip predictably.
As far as pow performance and thinking about a pow day ski goes, I have never once wished that I took my Bibbys (predecessor to the Wildcat) out on a pow day when I have been on the asym BGs. The BGs are significantly better in pow and soft crud (for me). Bibbys are definitely better on groomers, but it's not like they're magic - they're still a relatively straight/wide/rockered ski. They will carve a tighter turn than the BGs, but if groomer performance has that much of an impact on your pow day ski choice you should probably be looking at different skis. Salomon Blank might be worth checking out?

[ApexSkua]

The BG is not known for its firm snow performance. It's OK, but there are much better skis on firm. The BG118 is definitely better than previous versions. It still does not shine there.

Yeah, I'm not complaining about it! These are meant to be touring only skis to it shouldnt be any issue. They just felt so uncomfortable in the groomers back to the lift (and Crystal has plenty of those) that I wonder if I should be looking elsewhere for an inbounds pow ski

[ApexSkua]

I find it hard to believe its a boot or binding issue - I drove the same boots (Maestrale RS) and bindings (Tecton Carbon) on my other touring skis, Kore 99s, and they felt fine on firm. Not amazing, but fine. I think my tune job could use some work, yeah, I'll give that another go. Just felt like the skis didn't want to set an edge on the firm stuff, I had to really rail them over to get a good hold and even then they didn't want to be there too much. With only a small amount of edge angle they felt a bit squirrely, like they didn't want to be there. Like I said, if there was a bit of soft stuff to be slarved it was okay. I'll admit this could be up to user error - I'm used to more directional skis. Typically I like to set a small edge and let the tips take me where I want to go. These skis have the most tip and tail rocker/splay of any ski I've owned. Yeah and thanks for the Blank rec, that should be on my list too

[grinch]

Hmmm, now I see there is a 50/50 layup for custom builds. I wonder if that will do the trick over the stock layup (especially with the Gen2 flex and mount point tweaks), or if I should stay the course and go with a Tour. I'm not very hard on my gear these days either so I'm not sure if the thinner base and edges of the Tour layup will be penalizing to me on my rare trips to Bachelor where contact with lava rocks at high speeds is a lot more likely than at my local podunk hills ...

If your going thw custom route id stick with the stock build but just go softer flex. I dont think the lighter build will be better in the conditions you describe. Those conditionds kick skis around , especially lighter less damp skis.
Im entirely havey with my new bg 110 tour and its damper than other similar weight skis but i think its the shape that saves me when the conditions are variable. In powder they let you charge but you definitely have to focus more. My steeples are cadillacs thinly buried refrozen chunder or chop over frozen hardpack

Sent from my SM-A536W using TGR Forums mobile app

[grinch]

Just finished 2 days at Crystal on my new BG110 Tour. They're awesome and just what I was looking for in a mid-fat touring ski. Two things I didnt love were the weight, I can see why the on3p peeps recommend the 50/50 layup if you are going to spend any amount of time in the resort. The other thing is on anything firm without bunches of soft sluff to smear around, they are incredibly squirrely and hard to manage. On the first night I set the edges to 1 and detuned a couple inches back from the widest points on the tip/tail. That helped a bit but they were still very unpleasant on the firmed up groomers. I was thinking about a BG118 for an inbounds pow ski, but if the firm snow performance is anything like the 110 tour, I have to reconsider. Maybe the Wildcat or MF118 would be more what I'm looking for?

Bg118 or 110 stock build would be a perfect compliment to the 110tour. Its the weight. My 110tours rip like a bg in pow, . Icy groomers not so much. Nowhere near as relaxing do what you want but i bought them for touring and theyre the best ive had in that segment. Pintech bindings dont help stabilize them either but my steeple 102 with dynafits is still damp af. Horses for courses, its the weight and moarr bamboo that gives that caddy ride

Sent from my SM-A536W using TGR Forums mobile app

[mr_pretzel]

I find it hard to believe its a boot or binding issue - I drove the same boots (Maestrale RS) and bindings (Tecton Carbon) on my other touring skis, Kore 99s, and they felt fine on firm. Not amazing, but fine. I think my tune job could use some work, yeah, I'll give that another go. Just felt like the skis didn't want to set an edge on the firm stuff, I had to really rail them over to get a good hold and even then they didn't want to be there too much. With only a small amount of edge angle they felt a bit squirrely, like they didn't want to be there. Like I said, if there was a bit of soft stuff to be slarved it was okay. I'll admit this could be up to user error - I'm used to more directional skis. Typically I like to set a small edge and let the tips take me where I want to go. These skis have the most tip and tail rocker/splay of any ski I've owned. Yeah and thanks for the Blank rec, that should be on my list too

100% the tune, they aren’t race skis but they shouldn’t feel squirly. Make sure you check the base bevel not just the side. 1/1

[ApexSkua]

Thanks grinch, thats what I was thinking too. I'm strongly interested in the BGs so if anyone in the Seattle area wants to get rid of a 187/191, let me know 😉

[Going Coastal]

Horses for courses, its the weight and moarr bamboo that gives that caddy ride

I would have to agree with the (lack of) weight being a huge factor.

Assuming your sizing on the Kore 99s and the 110s are similar you are giving up at least 200gr of weight per ski, and 400gr over a stock layup. Add in the significantly different shape and it will definitely be noticable in firm conditions.

The Tectons/Vipecs have decent toe elasticity and ride much smoother than other pins I've used, so I doubt its the binding. I've been using Vipecs since 2015 and they are fine in firm conditions. Had them on a carbon G3 ski I toured with for years and the firm snow performance always came back to the weight of the ski.

At one point I tried to "improve" the firm snow performance on some 110 stock builds by increasing side bevel. They became noticably unpredictable on firm runout turn engagement. Big mistake, and very happy with them back at 1deg and accepting them for what they are when it comes to firm conditions.

Having the 110s for fresh days and a hard snow oriented ski for everything else has made me pretty happy this year.

So the solution, as always, is more skis.

[tharmor]

Posting to get the post count off of 666. Maybe I’m superstitious like that but whatevs


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[tharmor]

Posting to get the post count off of 666. Maybe I’m superstitious like that but whatevs


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

And that’s the page count. Whoops


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[kid-kapow]

100% the tune, they aren’t race skis but they shouldn’t feel squirly. Make sure you check the base bevel not just the side. 1/1

100%. The various BG110s seem to be ground zero for tune issues ON3P experienced last year - that run had some issues wrt tune, mine included. Should be an easy fix though - base grind and edge reset.

The Tectons/Vipecs have decent toe elasticity and ride much smoother than other pins I've used, so I doubt its the binding. I've been using Vipecs since 2015 and they are fine in firm conditions.

Keep in mind that Tectons and Vipecs do not have the same delta - Tecton heels are 3mm lower (3mm more delta than pivot gw, 2mm more than castified pivots - 1mm -> 2.6 degrees or so), at least withh my Lange XT3s. Different soles might yield different deltas.

So the hard snow performance being weird can just be you not being used to the Tecton's delta too.

[Going Coastal]

True, I guess it could be a number of things. I'm personally more sensitive to ski weight than anything else but I'm sure it's different for everybody. It took 1 day of resort time on touring skis to realize that wasn't something I would ever find enjoyable!

[Marko888]

Just finished 2 days at Crystal on my new BG110 Tour. They're awesome and just what I was looking for in a mid-fat touring ski. Two things I didnt love were the weight, I can see why the on3p peeps recommend the 50/50 layup if you are going to spend any amount of time in the resort. The other thing is on anything firm without bunches of soft sluff to smear around, they are incredibly squirrely and hard to manage. On the first night I set the edges to 1 and detuned a couple inches back from the widest points on the tip/tail. That helped a bit but they were still very unpleasant on the firmed up groomers. I was thinking about a BG118 for an inbounds pow ski, but if the firm snow performance is anything like the 110 tour, I have to reconsider. Maybe the Wildcat or MF118 would be more what I'm looking for?

I had the stock layup version, and while they were insanely good in pow, we’re exactly as you describe on firm snow. I found I had to stand on the tails and not drive the tips at all to survive groomers. My BG116’s are WAY easier to manage on firm snow…not super fun but totally calm and manageable. The 110’s were scary in comparison.

In hindsight I should have had tried a retune, but I sold them and replaced with a Woodsman 110 for my resort pow ski, which I’m super happy with.

let us know if the reset sorts them out.

[cocoapuff]

I love the stock 110. First day on it was very squirelly on firm snow. Gave it a fairly aggressive detune adjusted my stance and its perfectly predictable on groomers now. Can "lock in" and arc large turns skiing the ski's radius. Not awe inspiring but perfectly fine and of course a cheat ski in deep snow, tight terrain. I am +1cm for reference on the 187's. Skis are about 2220g/ski in stock layup.

[ApexSkua]

File and ski beast base tool enough for a base reset? Or do I need to take them to a shop for a "proper" tune

[adrenalated]

File and ski beast base tool enough for a base reset? Or do I need to take them to a shop for a "proper" tune

If the base is flat and it's just the edge bevel that needs fixing, the Ski Beast tool can do it. But it's challenging to do a good job with base bevels manually.

If the base is not flat, it needs to go to a shop for an actual base grind regardless.

[Name Redacted]

Took out my Steeples for a quick walk this weekend to remind me why I keep them around. It worked.

[f=ma]

To be honest, I've been having issues with my 187 BG118 in the firm for the past two seasons. I got the edges reset and all to no avail.

It's fine in the fresh though.

I'm gonna give it to the end of this season to figure it out or dump them. Probably go find another asym BG or maybe a GPO.

[ApexSkua]

If the base is flat and it's just the edge bevel that needs fixing, the Ski Beast tool can do it. But it's challenging to do a good job with base bevels manually.

If the base is not flat, it needs to go to a shop for an actual base grind regardless.

Is part of the issue people are reporting uneven bases? I thought it was just an edge issue. If so, that makes way more sense why the skis felt so squirrely. I can check with a true bar in a couple hours

[adrenalated]

Is part of the issue people are reporting uneven bases? I thought it was just an edge issue. If so, that makes way more sense why the skis felt so squirrely. I can check with a true bar in a couple hours

I haven't followed closely but I think just edges. But yes, check the base before you do anything and go from there.

[kid-kapow]

Is part of the issue people are reporting uneven bases?

The tune being off as discussed in this thread can be issues with edges being unevenly set (historic issue due to introduction of new machinery, should be fixed now), edge bevel, or that a ski is slightly railed / base high.

Squirrely is prob a combination of sligthly railed and edge bevel ebing off = easy fix, shop base grind and edge reset. I tried to "just" reset the edges on my BG110s and that did not do the trick all the way.

A bit annoying yes, but mistakes happen. And it is my understanding that that issue has since been resolved, the BG110 run being ground zero (based on this thread and my experience).

[optics]

The tune being off as discussed in this thread can be issues with edges being unevenly set (historic issue due to introduction of new machinery, should be fixed now), edge bevel, or that a ski is slightly railed / base high.

Squirrely is prob a combination of sligthly railed and edge bevel ebing off = easy fix, shop base grind and edge reset. I tried to "just" reset the edges on my BG110s and that did not do the trick all the way.

A bit annoying yes, but mistakes happen. And it is my understanding that that issue has since been resolved, the BG110 run being ground zero (based on this thread and my experience).

When a ski is "railed", it's edge high, not base high.