Lightweight tech binding for aggressive skiing: FT 2.0 v. Kingpin v. Ion v. Vipec

[LeeLau]

Lee, all that feedback about bindings is great. Would the vipec recommendation still hold true if you were making it for a 220lb skier? Beast series is out as I will not abide the lack of flat touring mode.

I know this is such a cover your ass response but mass matters dude! A 220lb skier generates so much more force than I do. I can tell you that my alpine binding din is 9. I ski Vipecs, Beast 16, Kingpin at 9. But I ski Radicals Comfort Vertical at 10 and even then I will blow out of them if I hit something hard enough. Whereas with the Vipec/Beast/Kingpin I stay in when I should and blow out when I should. So to me the Vipec/Beast/Kingpin even when used inbounds on something rattly like say cut-up SPankys feels as good as an alpine binding. But again I'm 160lbs

Lee, appreciate the response. Not to hijack neufox's thread, but I have another subjective question: do you think the upgrade to the Vipec from a pair of speed radicals (which I already own) is worth the $550? Do they ski that much better?

Hey what Lindahl said. I've got Comforts on the skis I only use for long tours (Automatic 102s) and am perfectly happy with them. I'm so happy with Comforts I've got a spare pair sitting in a box and wouldn't feel the need to upgrade as they're just so reliable. But if I had a ski I was using for inbound laps then out to slackcountry to beat the crowds then I'm a bit happier on Vipec/Kingpin/Beasts. But remember also i get this stuff to test so am not too price-sensitive. If I were to pay money then I'd just stick to my Comforts or Verticals and partly that's because i'm a cheap Azn but also because I'm light and don't really Lindahl my gear (j/k)

But having said all that with the new boots being so good and so stiff and so comfortable I really like ripping around even inbounds on the vulcans or the zerog or Khions on the newer 2.0 AT bindings. Love having such light stuff underfoot. Makes everything so playful But it's a luxury not a necessity IMO if you know what i mean?

[Lindahl]

But having said all that with the new boots being so good and so stiff and so comfortable I really like ripping around even inbounds on the vulcans or the zerog or Khions on the newer 2.0 AT bindings. Love having such light stuff underfoot. Makes everything so playful But it's a luxury not a necessity IMO if you know what i mean?

I feel the same way, but only on powder days, or soft chop days. If its firm and variable, I really want that alpine binding if I'm truly gunning it. I'm fine with the old Cochises and ProTour liners. Don't really need more boot.

[rod9301]

I just looked at the atk raider 12 and the brakes looked like a joke, very thin arms. Not sure if they would arrest a ski if it's anything harder than powder. Any comments?

I need to replace my ft 12s, and I m between ions and atk 12s.

[Lindahl]

Yeah, you remove the brakes. Saves 50g per on the Raider 14. Its a speed replacement. Or keep the brakes for clicking in (they work for that).

[kootenayskier]

It's my lightweight setup, spring, long tours, mountaineering etc, but I still want to be able to push it when the conditions and place merit. Don't plan on doing any large drops or anything but it would be nice to be able to ski aggressively on steeps or in bumps without worrying that my ski is about to go flying.

The Ion LT is what you need. I'm at over 100 days of hard skiing on mine without issue. I'd buy Kingpins for an in and out of bounds hucking setup.

[galibier_numero_un]

I just looked at the atk raider 12 and the brakes looked like a joke, very thin arms. Not sure if they would arrest a ski if it's anything harder than powder. Any comments?

Yeah, you remove the brakes. Saves 50g per on the Raider 14. Its a speed replacement. Or keep the brakes for clicking in (they work for that).

This is a bit disappointing, as the ATK's look so bomber. So, if brakes that actually stop your skis are a selection criterion, then the ATK's fall into the old Dynafit category.

BTW, I'm totally confident in the Ion 12 brakes, so (from Lee's comments) I'd extrapolate that they fit into the Vipec/Kingpin category from a brake functionality perspective. There isn't a ton of love for the Ions, and I don't get it. Maybe they need a few more reliability issues which they end up fixing over a two year cycle so they can get more attention

[edit] I'm not arguing for/against brakes vs. leashes ... just trying to catalog features/attributes.

Cheers,
thom

[rod9301]

Yeah, you remove the brakes. Saves 50g per on the Raider 14. Its a speed replacement. Or keep the brakes for clicking in (they work for that).

I can't find the 14 here, just the raider 12. Have you skied this one and how was it for retention? Which is the only thing I'm interested in.

[swissiphic]

"Gone is the vagueness of Dynafits (no doubt attributable in large part to the heel binding gap)

Skied some steep firm suncups last spring with a hunk of old running shoe midsole stuffed into the boot/binding 'gap' of my fourteen year old tourlite techs. No clue about relative durometer stiffness rating. Did an a/b comparo with one ski with rubber and one ski without. Skis with rubber were slightly more precise and reactive to ski/boot input. rubber fell out part way down the run so couldn't continue testing for successive laps. Forgot about that till now, will have to retest to see if it was just placebo effect. Not too worried about pre release, locked the toes. Not worried about busting the heel piece, the alu spindle baseplate is already cracked and the whole works is filled with j.b. weld. If she explodes, she explodes...

[LeeLau]

Skied some steep firm suncups last spring with a hunk of old running shoe midsole stuffed into the boot/binding 'gap' of my fourteen year old tourlite techs. No clue about relative durometer stiffness rating. Did an a/b comparo with one ski with rubber and one ski without. Skis with rubber were slightly more precise and reactive to ski/boot input. rubber fell out part way down the run so couldn't continue testing for successive laps. Forgot about that till now, will have to retest to see if it was just placebo effect. Not too worried about pre release, locked the toes. Not worried about busting the heel piece, the alu spindle baseplate is already cracked and the whole works is filled with j.b. weld. If she explodes, she explodes...

haha - you use the gear to the fullest. My Comforts are only 8 years old. My old TLT speeds I retired after 15 years and they're the spares for long tours

[Lindahl]

I can't find the 14 here, just the raider 12. Have you skied this one and how was it for retention? Which is the only thing I'm interested in.

Regarding the 14, excellent for retention. Way better clamping force than my Dynafit Speeds. And solid heel retention. I have about 25 days on them? I haven't tried the 12s but its exactly the same design, just different spring strengths and mounting plates.

[freak]

I know this is such a cover your ass response but mass matters dude! A 220lb skier generates so much more force than I do. I can tell you that my alpine binding din is 9. I ski Vipecs, Beast 16, Kingpin at 9. But I ski Radicals Comfort Vertical at 10 and even then I will blow out of them if I hit something hard enough. Whereas with the Vipec/Beast/Kingpin I stay in when I should and blow out when I should. So to me the Vipec/Beast/Kingpin even when used inbounds on something rattly like say cut-up SPankys feels as good as an alpine binding. But again I'm 160lbs

interesting. i am about your weight, and dont actually ski hard at all. but while i ski alpine bindings (p18) set to 10, i have to set vipecs and kingpins to the maximum, since they release much more easily...

as for the ops question, i cant really see much reason for using the kingpin at the moment.
if you want a tech-binding to go big, there is only the beast 16 anyways. if it should be rather light, radical 2.0 or ion, and for everything inbetween i would go for the fritschi (black edition though, the old ones kinda suck). imho the only advantage of the kingpin over the vipec is that it is easier to step in, but then it is quite a bit heavier. plasticky applies to both anyways...

freak~[&]

[Lindahl]

Odd, I do just fine going big on the Vipecs... 11/12 like on my STHs

[strawjack]

I just opted for the deal at EMS on the Radical FT

edit, just realized I may have bought leftovers and not the 2.0. Oh well, they have an easy return policy.

[galibier_numero_un]

I just opted for the deal at EMS on the Radical FT

edit, just realized I may have bought leftovers and not the 2.0. Oh well, they have an easy return policy.

Not to be an alarmist, but check the threads on the heel top plate screw issues on the 1.0.

Cheers,
Thom

[strawjack]

Not to be an alarmist, but check the threads on the heel top plate screw issues on the 1.0.

Cheers,
Thom

No, I appreciate it. If they're not the 2.0 I'm returning them to Rog. He'll be happy because they haven't sent him shit to sell this year.

[whyturn]

Can get white vipec on BC and have $200 credit. On sale for $450. New black is $600. Ion is $412. Radical and others are $600. First True AT setup and likely going with huscaran and virus lite. Is the white vipec on sale that bad? Is the ion better. I will ski pow and it will be Sierra and SoCal. Swear by FKS on all my skis and everything else is inferior? Should I just break down and spend money? Speed radical 2.0 is also cheap. I'm 175 tops and ski FKS at 9. Will have to adjust to skiing slowly

In case of FKS I ski 18 and sacrifice weight for durability and elasticity. Low stack height also key

Point is I had dukes and hated stack height. Even over weight. I can take steps to keep em clear

[auvgeek]

Will have to adjust to skiing slowly

Why?

[whyturn]

^^^ Its an assumption I guess. Like all other knowledge I have it's read or discussed and not real world. Just trying to get some advice. Guys in Europe skiing dynafit forever. The vipec reviews say it's softer and maybe better release. But it's stack height? Plastic and not shiny

[nickel]

Regarding the 14, excellent for retention. Way better clamping force than my Dynafit Speeds. And solid heel retention. I have about 25 days on them? I haven't tried the 12s but its exactly the same design, just different spring strengths and mounting plates.

Regarding raider 14, has anything been done to make the heel feel more connected than other tech 1.0 stuff or does it still feel vague on hardpack?

How is the ion in this regard also? I've thought about trying the cork under the boot heel to give some better feel on my radical 1.0s.

[neufox47]

I went with the ion for $440. Almost went for the Kingpin at $509 but i felt it was overkill for this ski.

Yes, i often ski stuff where a prerelease would be disastrous. Lots of east coast chutes with lots of rock and ice to slam into and tight trees.

[GeezerSteve]

Keep us advised re how the Ion works for you. Which model did you get?

Guys in Europe skiing dynafit forever.

Plenty o' guys in U.S. and Canada have been skiing old TLT Classics and Speed Classics for years, too. TLT Classic and Speed Classic heels are bomber, moreso than Vertical or Radical, and lighter, but only 10 RV, so not to your spec. (FWIW, you can get a somewhat effectively higher vertical and horizontal RV by setting the heel gap narrower than spec, but I'm not sure if and how that might effect release.) As I've said on other threads, Speed Classic heel (retrofitted with B&D top plate and Comfort-style volcano and longer Comfort/Vertical heel pins) + 4-screw Radical 1.0 toe has been bomber for hundreds of touring days for my fat ass. I'm 6'2", 240 lbs., old guy, don't huck, vestibularly impaired (no right inner ear) but ski plenty with a big pack, i.e., 280-300 lb. total skier+pack weigh, and way too many runs in frozen tree bombs, etc., so I've put that combo through hell with no failures other than a sheared heel pin every est. 150 touring days.

If I were buying new I'd look at the Ion LT 12 cuz the lack of heel gap is appealing, but I'm in no rush to switch from my combo that has been bomber for hundreds of touring days.

[retirwntm]

I went with the ion for $440. Almost went for the Kingpin at $509 but i felt it was overkill for this ski.

Yes, i often ski stuff where a prerelease would be disastrous. Lots of east coast chutes with lots of rock and ice to slam into and tight trees.

From what I heard about ion this seems like a good call. I have the speed rad with the intent of putting maruelli spindles / baseplate on them. If we get snow.

[retirwntm]

Can you imagine ramming a vipec into the walls of DD?

[PNWbrit]

Keep us advised re how the Ion works for you. Which model did you get?

Plenty o' guys in U.S. and Canada have been skiing old TLT Classics and Speed Classics for years, too. TLT Classic and Speed Classic heels are bomber, moreso than Vertical or Radical, and lighter, but only 10 RV, so not to your spec. (FWIW, you can get a somewhat effectively higher vertical and horizontal RV by setting the heel gap narrower than spec, but I'm not sure if and how that might effect release.) As I've said on other threads, Speed Classic heel (retrofitted with B&D top plate and Comfort-style volcano and longer Comfort/Vertical heel pins) + 4-screw Radical 1.0 toe has been bomber for hundreds of touring days for my fat ass. I'm 6'2", 240 lbs., old guy, don't huck, vestibularly impaired (no right inner ear) but ski plenty with a big pack, i.e., 280-300 lb. total skier+pack weigh, and way too many runs in frozen tree bombs, etc., so I've put that combo through hell with no failures other than a sheared heel pin every est. 150 touring days.

If I were buying new I'd look at the Ion LT 12 cuz the lack of heel gap is appealing, but I'm in no rush to switch from my combo that has been bomber for hundreds of touring days.

About 25 days on Ions 12s on Down 114s. Took a while to adjust to flatter ramp angle since (as mentioned above) I'm one of those here in the States who've been skiing only dynafits for years.

I'm very happy with them so far. Certainly a better binding than the Radical became with its poorly engineered floating heel. One mysterious release which was probably ice in boot socket.

They do have a learning curve for the dedicated Dynafit user though just little stuff but it's interesting how often you find yourself doing it by rote and it not working with the G3.. Like putting heel elevators up when you change to walk mode... then not being able to retract brakes when you take first step.. or just the slightly different way the toe of boot has to go in, the Dynafit roll from one side to another just will not work.

[strawjack]

Tell rog I want the tail clips he promised me.

He's reading this thread....shocking He said you'll get them when he gets new skins...but he doesn't ski because we don't have any snow! Surf brah!