Freeride Systems outerwear

[jono]

I dunno. In my opinion Neoshell is too cold on the lift in storms and too warm when hiking in the calm and sunny....
I also do better in softshells when touring and needing protection....
Its a good 3-season activity material though, imo.

Which 3 seasons? I have (reluctantly?) given mine a break in the summer. Layers are your friend in winter, though. That compromise certainly varies, but so far for me slightly heavier base/mid layers cover the insulation issue while retaining the breathing which is ideal for hot resort laps or windy touring. I also strip down to base layers sometimes for the up, so the light weight jacket winds up in the pack when I'm running hot and comes out for the wind as a ridge is gained or to fend off rain/hail etc. I'm often a little sweaty when it goes on, so the ability to dry out with it on is awesome; as others have said, I'm done with Gore etc. But I absolutely endorse the flow-through venting on FRS jackets specifically; full open at the cuffs, neck, and pits still makes a big difference.

I think the comparison of Neoshell to softshells is harder to pin down, though. I can breathe--with my lungs, I mean--through Neoshell, where some heavier softshells are more opaque, but obviously with no membrane the lightest end of the spectrum will breathe more. Just depends on how much you need, but I strongly prefer to have both options.

[Andeh]

I have a Rab Neoshell (was considering the FRS, but at the time I purchased only the Antero II was available, and I felt it would be too heavy for primarily touring). As others have said, the breathability of Neoshell is great, and legitimate, unlike GoreTex. I haven't had any issues with its waterproofness in CA & UT. However, if the wind is really howling, I do get colder than I have before in the past, so I'm now wearing thicker baselayers. Neoshell + Nano Air is pretty great.

That said, the Antero 3 looks great, as does the Bross. I love my R1 jacket, but it doesn't have a hood, and the Patagonia R1 hoody has no pockets, a very snug fit, and a scuba hood, plus costs twice as much.

[Lindahl]

However, if the wind is really howling, I do get colder than I have before in the past, so I'm now wearing thicker baselayers.

Yeah - thats when I ran into problems with lift served. High winds on the lifts had me wearing heavier baselayers, which left me sweating in the trees at the bottom of the run (out of the wind). A super thin lightweight baselayer and a hardshell thin puffy with awesome ventilation was the trick (Flylow BA). Kills it for the mountain states. Vent and its almost like running around naked.

[2FUNKY]

Yeah - thats when I ran into problems with lift served. High winds on the lifts had me wearing heavier baselayers, which left me sweating in the trees at the bottom of the run (out of the wind). A super thin lightweight baselayer and a hardshell thin puffy with awesome ventilation was the trick (Flylow BA). Kills it for the mountain states. Vent and its almost like running around naked.

Why I am looking real hard at TNF thermoball hybrid.
Removed pic, didn't want to cunt the Micol thread.

[Micol]

Also, Mike, what's the difference between the Antero variants: II, II Plus and 3?

and

PS Mike - what's the difference between the Antero 2 and Antero 3? (And why is the seemingly older Antero 2 more expensive?)
PPS - You've got "Malden Mills" spelled incorrectly on the Antero 2 and Antero 3 pages

Antero 2 has the arc'teryx style hood collar design that allows for moving the hood over the head or helmet without unzipping the front zipper. Ant 2 has interior pocket bags great for extra, lens, platypus, etc. Ant 2 is made from a Polartec Hybrid soft/hardshell fabric (quiet, heavier than hardshell, better insulating good for really low temps with correct layering) 1 internal zip pkt

Antero 2 Plus (same as Antero 2) except is hardshell tricot lined version similar to the Flylow Lab 2.0 but costs less and made in Colorado

Antero 3 Hardshell is tricot lined hardshell with NO arc'teryx style collar hood, no internal pocket bags, 1 internal zip pkt

PPS my spelling and grammar will never be much better than it is around here on tgr. when i dispatch the " web people" a lot of times that is me. so, my mistake. but thanks I am going to correct it.

[Micol]

I dunno. In my opinion Neoshell is too cold on the lift in storms and too warm when hiking in the calm and sunny (in my baselayer usually). I have no use for it at the resort.

I also do better in softshells when touring and needing protection. Neoshell just doesn't breathe enough. Its pretty rare that we get rain in winter, so a softshell has never let me down - never fully wetted out. Even with wet snow. When its snowing really heavy out here, they're usually decently cold and nasty storms and a very thin puffy is warranted for extra warmth which also provides enough of a barrier if its wet snow.

Its a good 3-season activity material though, imo. Hiking and climbing, etc.

Brian, I've seen you say this stuff before in Neo thread I think. You need to remember Neoshell is built by polartec in any variation you want....meaning

1. We pick the face fabric composition: e.g. (95%Poly 5%Lycra),( 93% Nylon 7% Lycra), ( 80% Nylon 15% Poly 5 Lycra) and so on....virtually any combonation is available to us as buyers of raw fabric..

2 The Neoshell membrane is the constant...its the same for all variations of Neoshell

3. The internal layer can be : Nylon Tricot, High loft velour fleece poly(think furry dog), Low loft velour poly (think pool table felt), micro grid velour poly, etc , etc , etc

So, no two Neoshell garments are going to perform exactly alike or be "warm' or "cold" you are not understanding....it is a customizable fabric for us to buy.....

So, Brian when you have a high loft velour interior and a 100%Nylon face that Neoshell is going to perform differently than say 80% poly 20%lycra micro grid velour, or even tricot .....Do you get that?

We can change #1 and #3 from list above and dial in the performance for cold, stretch, etc...

You probably ought to be talking about Neoshell in regard to specific brand and specific model...not lumping it all together, because you are spreading information that is not accurate.

[Micol]

^^^^^^^^in general to all

thanks for the positive vibes and support !

This is not an easy endeavor making garments like this in the USA as all the sourcing components are much more difficult to assemble, labor costs are 10x plus more expensive and none of the fancy equipment is around here like welding etc..

However, I have to say I did not plan to start an apparel company, it evolved from making the boot pack 1 carry system and now I am deep in and it feels very worthwhile and like the right way to make garments for the mountains...live in mountains, know what is missing from other garments, put those all together in one jacket, make it in the State where the mountains are located (this last onemaybe not relevant to performance), but very relative to positively affecting the most local people .

Pants almost dropped this season, but I hit some snags in my 3-4 years worth of designing and testing so instead of selling something I dont 100% think is the best, I will wait till I get it all dialed in 100%

C (makerstele) ?? I speak 'tgr' but I don't understand...I know u dont think im a dick because we have history but im trying to still figure out that post i think this may be a variation of sfb speak...or code or....

[Foggy_Goggles]

I don't know shit about fabrics but I know that the jackets I've seen are sweet. Please, when you make pants let them be pants. Not everyone likes bibs.

[Lindahl]

MiCol - fair enough. Its my understanding that CFM or direct air permeability is largely based on the least breathable component - in this case I suppose it could possibly NOT be the Neoshell membrane itself? I would think it would be though. Out of your options for #1 - how would you characterize the breathability between each of the fabrics? (darth vader test - try to breath through it)

If you make pants, you should consider add male snaps near the belt loops like Oakley does and add mating female snaps to powder skirts (add removeable ones to the jacket). Killer system - love it. Oh yeah and suspenders are a must. Skiing is really dynamic and the last thing I want is something tight around my waist (usually pop snaps no matter how loose the waist is - moguls or chop and the occassional huck).

By the way, digging the new color options man!

[Andeh]

Makes sense, I had a feeling that my Rab jacket was cold partly mostly because it's basically just a paper thin shell, more than the fact that it was air permeable. Yeah, I can feel the tiniest bit of draft when it's really blowing, but the fact that I'm warm again if I wear like Merino 3 + R1 under it, or Merino 2 + Nano Air matches what you're saying about the interior face fabric. Basically, adding a buffer space of warm air between the body and the shell of the jacket. I was used to being so sweaty from GoreTex's plastic bag effect, that I defaulted to wearing very minimal layers.

Agreeing with Furry Goggles on the pants, sort of. I prefer pants with built in, removable suspenders. Bibs make me really sweaty in lower back and waist. Also, take a look at how the Arc'teryx Theta SV suspenders are set up: the rear strap ends come forward and attach just in front of the side zip. This lets you drop trou after your morning coffee works it's way through you, without taking your jacket & layers off to remove suspenders.

Anyways, ordered a Bross - too good a deal to pass up!

[jono]

MiCol - fair enough. Its my understanding that CFM or direct air permeability is largely based on the least breathable component...

Forgive me if I have this wrong, but I'm thinking you're an engineer, right? It would be more accurate to think of layers as resistors in series (they pretty much are, aside from linear math). If you have three and one has 100x more resistance than the others you can get away with ignoring the others, but as they get closer in values you have to do the math and pay attention to all of them. Without isolating it, you know this membrane is similar to fabric in terms of flow resistance because it's easily possible to make a fabric with no membrane at all that breathes slower than a light Neoshell.

It sounds like your experience validates the better flow. YMMV, but I prefer better breathing/less sweat to less breathing/more sweat in all circumstances; getting insulation right for temperature is still important, but I'm much more sensitive to it when I'm sweating.

Full disclosure, though: I'm planning to rock the Antero II inbounds whenever it's cold enough and save the Neoshell for when there's no chance of lift grease dripping on me. In an attempt to preserve factory DWR, I've actually removed a couple spots of grease with Techwash on a Q-tip and rinsing until the water beaded off (that was weird!) but it was kind of a pain.

[Lindahl]

Forgive me if I have this wrong, but I'm thinking you're an engineer, right? It would be more accurate to think of layers as resistors in series (they pretty much are, aside from linear math). If you have three and one has 100x more resistance than the others you can get away with ignoring the others, but as they get closer in values you have to do the math and pay attention to all of them. Without isolating it, you know this membrane is similar to fabric in terms of flow resistance because it's easily possible to make a fabric with no membrane at all that breathes slower than a light Neoshell.

It sounds like your experience validates the better flow. YMMV, but I prefer better breathing/less sweat to less breathing/more sweat in all circumstances; getting insulation right for temperature is still important, but I'm much more sensitive to it when I'm sweating.

Thats true for calculating CFM between layers, but when talking about fabrics laminated together it changes quite a bit - they tend to act as one layer with the lowest CFM of the bunch. The formula for layering is 1/(1/a + 1/b).

I agree with you when it comes to backcountry skiing but when you add being on lifts in the alpine and wind, I prefer a completely windproof shell, thin layers and large venting capabilities that can bypass almost all of your insulation (can't do that with fleeces/etc.). This way you have minimal insulation (bypassed) when you're warm and no heat-sapping wind requiring you to add lots of midlayer warmth. Stretch-woven softshells suck for liftserved on all but the warmest and calmest days for a reason. Really big fan of insulated hardshells with no-mesh venting for lifts - especially on colder days.

[Micol]

^^We are def in tech talk

Brian, I think the best thing is for you and me to meet up in SumCo and let me show you some of these fabrics dissected. (anytime convenient for you, as I live up here and around a lot)

In addition, I want to say that wearing both the Antero 2 and 3 [not together at one time ] on a sled at high speed I have felt no wind penetration. The most layering I would have had in that situation would have been the Sneffles or the Bross R-1 and a long sleeve base layer. And no other significant wind barrier layer to contribute to face fabric and membrane wind resistance.

I'm going to leave the formulas to you and Jono

.

[Micol]

Makes sense, I had a feeling that my Rab jacket was cold partly mostly because it's basically just a paper thin shell, more than the fact that it was air permeable. Yeah, I can feel the tiniest bit of draft when it's really blowing, but the fact that I'm warm again if I wear like Merino 3 + R1 under it, or Merino 2 + Nano Air matches what you're saying about the interior face fabric. Basically, adding a buffer space of warm air between the body and the shell of the jacket. I was used to being so sweaty from GoreTex's plastic bag effect, that I defaulted to wearing very minimal layers.

Agreeing with Furry Goggles on the pants, sort of. I prefer pants with built in, removable suspenders. Bibs make me really sweaty in lower back and waist. Also, take a look at how the Arc'teryx Theta SV suspenders are set up: the rear strap ends come forward and attach just in front of the side zip. This lets you drop trou after your morning coffee works it's way through you, without taking your jacket & layers off to remove suspenders.

Anyways, ordered a Bross - too good a deal to pass up!

^ I have noted everyone's suggestions and concerns on pants.

Once I get the most recent bugs out of the latest version...I will query you guys in depth a little more
about the details like the suspender and other trim and accessories. And, for that matter fabric selection.

I have finalized high impact area fabrics and zipper placements and can insert different fabrics into
that template. My test versions have all been sewn from Polartec Neoshell with a low pct Poly higher lycra content face fabric and a gridded wicking fleece interior finish. (laminate of course/not separate fabric). However, we could make that pant in hardshell version as well as the hybrid I described.
interior which

[jono]

Thats true for calculating CFM between layers, but when talking about fabrics laminated together it changes quite a bit - they tend to act as one layer with the lowest CFM of the bunch. The formula for layering is 1/(1/a + 1/b).

I'm pretty sure if we built an airplane out of this stuff and put it on a treadmill it still wouldn't get very far off the ground, so I don't think we need to get too nuts on numbers. Suffice it to say that your formula is the inverse of the one I was suggesting (permeability rather than resistance) but knowing that you can still use it to prove what I was saying, just plug in some very different numbers for a and b and compare the result to what happens when they are very similar: it shows that if one layer is extremely dominant you can ignore the others.

Since we know that some of the Neoshell laminates breathe so well that you would prefer they breathed less, I'm guessing you'll need to french kiss some of MiCol's samples and report back? Err...hopefully no tongue required.

Really big fan of insulated hardshells with no-mesh venting for lifts - especially on colder days.

Agreed. That's exactly how I intend to use the Antero II. Since it's fully vented with no mesh and zippers that operate freely I'll be interested to see how warm it can get before I go to the Neoshell. Last spring I got nothing but warm days. Bring on winter!

[wwwllw]

The most layering I would have had in that situation would have been the Sneffles or the Bross R-1 and a long sleeve base layer.
.

I own the Sneffles and have been lusting over the Bross. Is there any conceivable difference? I'm tempted to get one just to have a different color, but would like to know of any advantages. It sounds like it has more of a "standard neck" compared to the sneffles with its oversized and taller neck, but are they otherwise similar? Thanks in advance. Looking forward to getting a jacket and hopefully some bibs too.

[Kya]

This thread is awesome!

[dcpnz]

I dunno. In my opinion Neoshell is too cold on the lift in storms and too warm when hiking in the calm and sunny (in my baselayer usually). I have no use for it at the resort.

I also do better in softshells when touring and needing protection. Neoshell just doesn't breathe enough.

I'm with lindahl on this one. Disappointed in Neoshell. Its pitched as the latest and greatest wonder fabric. Reality is I have no idea when it is anywhere near as good as other options so mine never comes out of the closet. Too cold on lifts, too warm hiking or skinning.

That said i still like what Mike is doing and am interested in trying some thing from freeride systems st some point.

[jono]

As noted upthread, no two Neoshell laminates are the same, but it's also worth saying that FRS is making jackets from a lot of fabrics, I just happen to find the Neoshell to be a favorite. Maybe the overall fabric you two tried was different, but it sounds more like you are talking about predictable conditions where you know going out you'll either need a lot of insulation or that there's no chance of really serious precip. I hope this winter sends me more of those days--ideally the cold variety!

Last spring I was caught in a sudden downpour of "wintery mix" precip on an uptrack that a softshell wouldn't have handled. Really humid, temp close to 40 down low. Pulled the FRS from the pack and continued up with full venting (opening the cuffs is awesome). Higher up when the temp dropped and the wind kicked up to a howl everything was closed and I was comfortable. The hint of air was just enough to match my exertion and dry out the last of the moisture I'd picked up below.

Inbounds I'm layering more most days, but even when I forget or just get it wrong I find I'm more comfortable than if I'd missed with something less breathable. I do credit the FRS venting for a lot of this jacket's versatility, though; wouldn't be the same without that.

[Micol]

I own the Sneffles and have been lusting over the Bross. Is there any conceivable difference? I'm tempted to get one just to have a different color, but would like to know of any advantages. It sounds like it has more of a "standard neck" compared to the sneffles with its oversized and taller neck, but are they otherwise similar? Thanks in advance. Looking forward to getting a jacket and hopefully some bibs too.

sorry missed this earlier. sneffles has longer arms, taller collar, and a different version of R-1. It is tighter grid pattern (smaller grids) with less space between grids in relaxed (non stretched) mode

pants , bibs or convertible bib/pants coming one day soon I promise

[mall walker]

My bross just came, really nice hoody. This will probably replace my BD coefficient for a lightweight layer over a wicking tee shirt, these grid fleeces are awesome - perfect for cold skinning, a 2nd base layer on cold days, or a sole mid layer on warmer days. I am impressed with the fit! Good shit. Whenever I can next justify buying another shell I will be coming back your way.

[Andeh]

My bross just came, really nice hoody. This will probably replace my BD coefficient for a lightweight layer over a wicking tee shirt, these grid fleeces are awesome - perfect for cold skinning, a 2nd base layer on cold days, or a sole mid layer on warmer days. I am impressed with the fit! Good shit. Whenever I can next justify buying another shell I will be coming back your way.

Ditto, seems well built. My only critique about the build is that the shoulder seam is about 2" wider on each side than a standard medium. Resulting overall size is accurate though. Long length seems fantastic for keeping drafts off your lower back when bending over.

Comparing to the Patagonia R1 hoody & jackets:
*basically better in all ways than the P hoody (full zip front, normal style hood, pockets)
*pockets should be warmer for hands than the P jacket (since they're an extra layer of fleece, rather than slit zipped mesh). Pockets are deep and wide enough to fit my iPhone 6+.

Suggestions for improvements in a future version:
*pull string extension for zipper (zipper gets fully hidden by the chin flap, kind of tricky to dig it out to unzip)
*thumb loop holes in sleeve (one of my favorite features of the P jacket)
*bungee drawstring (like on hood) around waist. It currently hangs loose, which is good for casual, but drawstring would be nice for keeping it from riding up while layering or or allowing snow in.
*mesh drop-in pockets on the inside

[wicked_sick]

Can anyone comment on how the bross fits compared to the FRS fleece hood from a couple years back?

[meter-man]

My bross just came, really nice hoody. This will probably replace my BD coefficient for a lightweight layer over a wicking tee shirt, these grid fleeces are awesome - perfect for cold skinning, a 2nd base layer on cold days, or a sole mid layer on warmer days. I am impressed with the fit! Good shit. Whenever I can next justify buying another shell I will be coming back your way.

How is the sizing on the Bross? Does it run large? I am 6', 190#, and got the Sneffles in large, and am swimming in it/appear to be wearing Saga.

[mall walker]

How is the sizing on the Bross? Does it run large? I am 6', 190#, and got the Sneffles in large, and am swimming in it/appear to be wearing Saga.

I am 5'10", 150# and got a medium. It's slightly longer along the waist, and maybe a tad wide in the shoulders, but it's still within the bounds of what I would call "true to size"