130+ flex, Upright, Narrow Heel—what boot am I?

**auvgeek** · 09-10-2015, 08:10 AM

Looking for a (very) stiff boot with good heel hold and less forward lean. It's relatively easy to find two of those three requirements, but I'm having trouble finding all three. I figured I'd ask around here for suggestions. Then I can call around to find a shop that has them or order boots and take them to a fitter. Most off-the-shelf 130 flex boots I've tried feel too soft.

Been in the Scorpion 130 for the past two seasons—I love the stiff flex and amazing heel hold, but I'd like it to be a bit more upright. Had a boot fitter stand them up more, but they still feel too forward and I think that may have messed with the fit—I'm having some serious issues with the upper meshing to my leg in the anterior tibialis/peroneous longus region. It's not an issue of the flex being too stiff; the boot hurts as soon as I buckle it up. Maybe it's the liner, but regardless I'm tired of trying to make this boot work for me. (3-4 Seattle fitters couldn't figure out the issue, either.) That said, it's the first boot I've used that is stiff enough to let me ski chop/crud at the speeds I'd like without folding/blowing through the flex. Before the Scorpion, I was in a Full Tilt w. #10 tongue & WC booster strap that was constantly folding on me at high speeds over variable terrain.

So who makes a stiff, upright boot with a narrow heel pocket? Of the boots I've tried, Lange or KR2 (most upright shim) feel the best to me in terms of fwd lean, but the heel pocket in the RS 130 isn't as tight as I'd like. The KR2 (which I also own) isn't stiff enough without the cuff stops, and isn't progressive enough with them in. Not opposed to tossing a ZipFit in any boot to lock the heel down, but hoping to find something similarly upright to the Lange with a bit smaller heel pocket (and a stiffer flex). Do Lange's plug boots get smaller in the heel/ankle as well as the forefoot?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

**El Chupacabra** · 09-10-2015, 08:21 AM

I really like the Garmont Shaman, which has the best heel hold of any boot I've ever had. It's now sold as the Scott G2 130, and from what I've read, is similar to some Nordica Doberman models. My heels kind of protrude out (pronounced bump shape) and if I don't have a deep and narrow heel pocket on my ski boots, my heels slip and I can't flex the boot properly.

Might be worth checking out. It fits me so well that I bought two more backup pairs, cheap because Garmont sold out / closed down.

**undertow2** · 09-10-2015, 08:23 AM

I ski the Salomon X-Max 130 and absolutely love it, which is the reason why I bought a second pair... I added the worldcup booster strap and could not imagine going any stiffer, but if you need more than you could go with the Salomon X-Lab 130+... I should add that I ski the ON3P 191 Wren, 191 Billygoat and 196 Renegade (plus others) and this boot has never folded on me, which I could not say about my Salomon Falcon 10s...

I thought I was a Lange lifer as this is the boot I used when racing... Went to my local shop and they had me try this boot on and have not looked back since... I have a narrow heel/foot and this boot is one of the closest fits I have owned and it def has a more upward stance than others out there... Def worth a look and Blister just threw up a review on it...

**crashidy** · 09-10-2015, 08:57 AM

I think you are on the right track. I'm the same and have always skied lange. Currently in the dalbello scorpion 130. They along with the garmont described above are likely your best fits. The plug dalbello is tighter in the heal but you will still find the forward lean to much. My suggestion is to heat roll the top inch of the cuff back. Most with good heal holders are forward lean. If you want more relaxed forward angle look for a stiff jibbers boot and maybe add a rivet to the rear cuff.

**TAFKALVS** · 09-10-2015, 09:24 AM

Have you thought about going with a true plug boot with a 92-95mm last? As you probably know, plug boots have very narrow lasts but thick plastic that allows the boot fitter to carve the shape of your foot into the boot. All the people I know who need brutal heel hold and stiffness skip the recreational boots (eg raptor 130, lange rs/rx130) and go for the plugs. They generally have much narrower heel pockets than the rec boots too.

Have you tried a foam or cork injection liner yet?

You could look at the Lange or Rossi plug boot, which will already have an upright stance but will also have a narrower heel pocket than the 98mm last boots.

Also look at the Head B2 RD (150) or B3 RD (130) (both fairly upright, stiff, narrow) and the Tecnica R9.3 (haven't seen them in person but narrow, stiff, look upright from the pictures)

The Garmont boots are nice but have more forward lean than the boots I just listed.

**stuckathuntermtn** · 09-10-2015, 09:24 AM

Lean forward, bend the ski.
What's all this shit about upright boots I see now and then? Your knees go over your toes.

**TAFKALVS** · 09-10-2015, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

Lean forward, bend the ski.
What's all this shit about upright boots I see now and then? Your knees go over your toes.

They allow you to stand taller with a more relaxed knee angle and have your hips stacked over the feet. This cuts down on thigh burn and gives you more range of motion to change cuff pressure to cope with varying snow and terrain changes. (vs being constantly forced into an extreme forward position that often results in the hips shooting back and the torso inclining forward - eg skiing in the back seat. That position is fine on groomed snow or a race course but it's not ideal for making freeride.)

Having skied with auvgeek a couple times, I can tell you that he skis well enough to deserve a strong opinion about what works for him. If he needs an upright boot, let the man have a goddamn upright boot.

**XavierD** · 09-10-2015, 09:40 AM

Upright boots are the tits.

Lange ZB if you can track one down, and are willing to go through the fitting process.
The Nordica Doberman and Tecnica 9.8/Mach1LV tend to have a narrower heel hold than the 98mm Lange.

**auvgeek** · 09-10-2015, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier

Have you thought about going with a true plug boot with a 92-95mm last?

Definitely! Guess I should have conveyed that better in my post: I'm basically looking for the most upright plug boot with good heel hold. It would be awesome if someone had actual measurements of the forward lean for the major boot makers (Head, Lange, Tecnica, etc), as they are very hard/impossible to come by online.

IIRC, last time I tried the Raptor 130, R9.8, and RS 130 on, the Raptor had the tightest heel hold (not quite as good as the Scorpion, but close), but the Lange was the best angle for me. Frankly, I'd prefer if the Head worked, as there is a cheap pair of B2s on eBay right now. Anyway, looks like I'll try to find a pair of Lange plugs, I guess.

Originally Posted by XavierD

Lange ZB if you can track one down, and are willing to go through the fitting process.
The Nordica Doberman and Tecnica 9.8/Mach1LV tend to have a narrower heel hold than the 98mm Lange.

I have been looking closely at the ZB. Do you know for sure if the heel gets narrower on Lange's plug boots, not just the forefoot? I've heard rumors that the heel pocket stays the same, while they decrease the space mid-foot forward.

**XavierD** · 09-10-2015, 10:01 AM

I really like the head boots. They ski fantastic, but honestly thought the 98mm Raptors fit bigger, could just be me though.

Been a couple years since I messed with a ZC, but I do believe everything was tighter in it.

**comish** · 09-10-2015, 11:08 AM

Hmm, I can only comment on fit of super narrow 130-150 flex boots. I bought a veritable boot shop this summer and have posted my thoughts here:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...B3-X-lab/page3

Not sure how to go about measuring their forward lean. Still have the Dobie's, Redster's, and Head B3 plugs so if someone could suggest a way to do it I'm game. In the end, the Dobie World Cup (not Pro) last is the tightest heal hold of the one's I have tried, with the Head right behind and almost identical. Check out Leftlanesports.com for the Head plug <$400.

I'm going w/ the Dobie WC EDT 130 w/ the Carbon boot board. Stoked to finally ride something that isn't a softened 150 flex as the softer upper in the 130 wraps my ankle so much better than my softened Dobie 150's. The Head in its softest flex setting is similar to the Dobie 130, but it has 2 slots to supposed get 10 and another 10 stiffer so might be a good option if you want stiffer than the 130. I have read that the plug 130's are stiffer than say the Head RS 130's, but can't substantiate that.

**stuckathuntermtn** · 09-10-2015, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier

They allow you to stand taller with a more relaxed knee angle and have your hips stacked over the feet. This cuts down on thigh burn and gives you more range of motion to change cuff pressure to cope with varying snow and terrain changes. (vs being constantly forced into an extreme forward position that often results in the hips shooting back and the torso inclining forward - eg skiing in the back seat. That position is fine on groomed snow or a race course but it's not ideal for making freeride.)

Having skied with auvgeek a couple times, I can tell you that he skis well enough to deserve a strong opinion about what works for him. If he needs an upright boot, let the man have a goddamn upright boot.

Ok, I guess?
I like to get low and forward, even in powder, but maybe I'm just a fucking idiot. The only extra thigh burn I notice is waiting at the bar, lol.

**Samski360** · 09-10-2015, 11:32 AM

I got into the dalbello lupos last winter. Very upright stance, but now I'm totally into it. Pretty similar to the kryptons, but may be worth trying on. The liners offer good heel lock for me and have a good progressive flex (though, since these are my first dedicated alpine boots after years of skiing touring boots in the resort, I am no authority on what progressive flex is supposed to feel like). I haven't been able to fold them over while railing in thick Oregon mank. Might be worth a shot.

**2FUNKY** · 09-10-2015, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

I'm just a fucking idiot.

Agreed. Leavenworth nailed it.

**Lindahl** · 09-10-2015, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

Ok, I guess?
I like to get low and forward, even in powder, but maybe I'm just a fucking idiot. The only extra thigh burn I notice is waiting at the bar, lol.

Pretty much. Its important to match the forward lean of the boot to the natural forward lean of your stance. People with limited dorsiflexion tend to be more upright, for example. I have about half the dorsiflexion of most people which makes a huge difference. In more forward leaning boots, I have a difficult time flexing them because I'm near the limits of my dorsiflexion as is. A more upright boot? No problem. Basically, a boot that is too forward for you actually takes AWAY your power.

**spin2win** · 09-10-2015, 12:35 PM

In my experience very little (except a plug boot) will be anywhere near the flex of the Scorpion you are currently in. Other boots to try on if you have a chance:

Nordica patron pro (might be stiff enough with a zipfit)

Fischer vacuum 150 - the standard molding process even in the most upright position would still have too much forward lean, so you would need to modify it accordingly

Tecnica 9.3/9.8 - The 9.3 is going to be more of the plug fit, the 9.8 is going to require less fitting, but may be the tits with a zipfit. I don't how upright either of the tecnica's are though.

A zipfit will increase the flex of the boot and offer much better heel retention than any stock/intuition liner.

I don't have any personal experience with foamed liners, but if you find the right shell that might be an even better choice - maybe someone else with more experience could help you out there.

**auvgeek** · 09-10-2015, 01:05 PM

@comish: I really enjoyed reading your fit comparisons. It sounds like you have a much narrower foot than me, so you're after something a bit different, but your results were still enlightening. I'm not sure how you could measure in a way that would help, but I'd love to hear general impressions of the Dobie compared to B3, which I believe has the same fwd lean as the Raptor 130.

Thanks everyone for the input.

**XavierD** · 09-10-2015, 01:36 PM

Are you looking to measure forward lean of just the shin, or the angle between the zeppa and shin?

Both are relatively easy to measure with some basic carpentry tools.

**cinnepa** · 09-10-2015, 01:39 PM

these new technical LV's are the bees knees..........I had heel problems in past - these fit unreal.

**TAFKALVS** · 09-10-2015, 01:41 PM

If you're going to spend the money, may as well get the stiffest. It's easy to make a boot softer and more progressive, it's a pain to make a boot stiffer. If in doubt between a 130 and a 150, go 150.

**stuckathuntermtn** · 09-10-2015, 02:44 PM

The ole dorsiflection.

What is that again?

**lordf** · 09-10-2015, 03:19 PM

Solly x pro could be your ticket, I ditched mine as they were too uptight for my liking. I'm now in atomic tracker 130s which have a lot more forward lean and suit me far better.

**RegCT** · 09-10-2015, 05:50 PM

Currently in a 25.5 Rossi experience 130 with a zipfit WC. 3 seasons in the boot and love them.

Looking to make a similar change however. Going with the KR2 with the zipfit WC and actually going to try to size down to a 24.5 with a little work. Love the heel lock and low profile of the zipfit. Stoked to try the KR2.

Might want to consider the Lupo. I hear it's pretty upright.

160lbs