Architecture

[::: :::]

I work with GSA every day and have never seen a metric plan.

I worked on a census computer building in MD and the national museum of the American Indian, both GSA and both reqd to be done in metric. More recently, a foreign soil us embassy I was helping on was reqd to be in metric.
Maybe only certain projects fit that bill...

[matoco]

Do you know carpenters, plumbers, welders, hell any trade in the US that routinely works in metric? I'd love to work in metric, so much easier.

Never seen any field guys use metric system. I would think I'd get looked at like I'm crazy if I said 19mm gyp board.

As far as scaling the drawings, I will only do it to get a general idea of dimensions. I would never do any sort of layout from scaling and I think if you have to, your drawings probably have a lot more holes in them than you think.

With that being said, all the drawings I get issued as a gc are modeled in revit typically and have accurate dimensions that usually can be scaled for a pretty spot on measurement, especially for details. We expect the .rvt, .dwg or whatever sort of files the a/e has to be issued to us and for them to be accurate. As the gc we do not have these cad programs at my company (although many gc's do). However a lot of our subs use them for their design and shop drawings (fire alarm, fire protection, steel, etc).

[Plainview]

I've been on road jobs that were funded by the feds that were metric. The contractor issued us tape measures that has both metric and us customary on them

[Tippster]

Way more complicated than that. Its been tried and failed miserably. When you are talking tolerances in the fraction of an inch and converting material that is made in existing molds or forms to specific inches (such as the already referred to 5/8" plywood) the resulting conversion errors combined with allowable construction and fabrication tolerances leads to a compounding nightmare of shit not fitting the architects fancy bim model.

It only failed here in the US tho. 5/8" is 15.875mm. Are you telling me that if we start making 16mm plywood the building would fall down? Again, the rest of the world works in metric. You cannot argue that our buildings are better than those built in say Germany or Sweden.

Cultural and Professional inertia at work, it seems.

[Foggy_Goggles]

I'm sure metric would be easier be it's not like the existing system is hard. Really the only part remotely close to challenging is square and cubic calculations. Just like any profession, you commit the methodology to memory pretty quickly. Some people just can't read a tape. Everyone has there own methodology for calling out measurements. I know one framing crew that has adopted all measurements being inches and 16ths ie "one forty two and four" = 142 1/4"

[teleee]

It only failed here in the US tho. 5/8" is 15.875mm. Are you telling me that if we start making 16mm plywood the building would fall down? Again, the rest of the world works in metric. You cannot argue that our buildings are better than those built in say Germany or Sweden.

Cultural and Professional inertia at work, it seems.

I am not arguing with any of that. If the entire system switches to metric then yep, no problem. If you are building a nuclear reactor (and yes I have) with tolerances in the hundredths of an inch that .125 mm of being off over the entire 4 foot width (121.92 cm) crushes all of the construction tolerances you might have. Now if the industry actually made a 16 mm plywood then yep no problem. It worked ok when the FWHA mandated that all highway projects be built to the metric system because there are a LOT more tolerances allowed in road and bridge building. If a bridge is a an inch off the only person that usually know is the GC.

I have worked on projects in countries where the material and the projects were in metric and it works just fine. You cant mix the 2 though.

[nickwm21]

The entire US building material industry would have to retool all dyes, molds, jigs, presses, etc to be metric. That is not going to happen.

[teleee]

The entire US building material industry would have to retool all dyes, molds, jigs, presses, etc to be metric. That is not going to happen.

Exactly, and that is why the metric initiative has failed miserably.

[::: :::]

The entire US building material industry would have to retool all dyes, molds, jigs, presses, etc to be metric. That is not going to happen.

Not really. You just use the sizes they make and get on with it.

One thing that is nice about metric is working in whole numbers. Tolerances for building are reasonable down to a few mm. So you never have to deal with adding up eighths with halves or the silly 12"/ft math -- even if they don't change the material sizes.

You can grid out 300, 600, 900, 1200 mm pretty easily for something close to feet

[BigDaddy]

Go back and read what I wrote. It was a simple statement of fact. You seem to have read a lot of meaning into it that wasn't there.

I think there's ton's of value in the design process. Our architect designed a beautiful home in a beautiful setting, and our builder and all the craftsmen who worked on it created a work of art. I still miss it. The money-losing decisions were our own.

I'll probably regret posting this, but here is the house I'm talking about.

Nice place... I bid all the refinishing for the new owner. Infamous house but do you know the "Art House" on Farrar Pond? Another TFC project: http://www.oroeditions.com/book/art-house

[The Suit]

Infamous house but do you know the "Art House" on Farrar Pond? Another TFC project.

I know the owner, but we moved before it got built, so I've never seen it. My architect uncle got me the book.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Not really. You just use the sizes they make and get on with it.

I think that is the problem. 1/16 = 1.5875mm. You'd start getting some pretty long decimals quickly for example and 11 7/8" I-joint would be 301.625mm (or do the Euros work in cm?). I can maybe mark .5mm on my tape?

I'm sure in residential construction we could develop some rounding conventions that would work but on jobs where 32nd matter, it would be a nightmare.

[BigDaddy]

I know the owner, but we moved before it got built, so I've never seen it. My architect uncle got me the book.

Both are amazing places, but the maintenance for all that wood is insane. You saved at least $50k/yr by moving! Very cool, tho, one of my all time favorites.

[Gepeto]

Nice place... I bid all the refinishing for the new owner. Infamous house but do you know the "Art House" on Farrar Pond? Another TFC project: http://www.oroeditions.com/book/art-house

Amazing lines...

Quite a few Frank Lloyd Wright in the local communities. DB something over 500 buildings. Refreshed the finishes in two of them.

But nothing like this. Almost Jetson like.
The kitchen sink basin Island counter - do you remember the material?

[::: :::]

I think that is the problem. 1/16 = 1.5875mm. You'd start getting some pretty long decimals quickly for example and 11 7/8" I-joint would be 301.625mm (or do the Euros work in cm?). I can maybe mark .5mm on my tape?

If you're stacking I-joists on top of each other, you might have bigger issues... 😜

[Foggy_Goggles]

Just the first material that came to mind. Here's another example, framing layout: Assuming 16" O.C. studs and 4'X8' Sheets of ply, how you gonna layout and mark "15 and a 1/4 and go" on your plate? What's the number for your fireblocking? How long is a 104 and 5/8 stud?

[::: :::]

Just the first material that came to mind. Here's another example, framing layout: Assuming 16" O.C. studs and 4'X8' Sheets of ply, how you gonna layout and mark "15 and a 1/4 and go" on your plate? What's the number for your fireblocking? How long is a 104 and 5/8 stud?

It's just a measuring system. If you're having trouble with math, perhaps you're not the GC for the job.

Once you start doing it, you figure out the system.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Point is, the argument to metric is that it is easier. If the materials, code sets, plans etc. don't change to metric, it ain't easier.

[teleee]

It's just a measuring system. If you're having trouble with math, perhaps you're not the GC for the job.

Once you start doing it, you figure out the system.

And people don't like working with architects, weird.

[::: :::]

And people don't like working with architects, weird.

only gc's and engineers, it seems

just busting some chops, man, it's tgr

[BigDaddy]

Amazing lines...

The kitchen sink basin Island counter - do you remember the material?

Yes, this house screams cocktail party... I picture the sequel to Peter Sellers, "The Party" filmed here.

Not sure about the island, but I see the builders almost every day and can ask.

[BigDaddy]

And people don't like working with architects, weird.

F off, nerd! And aren't you supposed to be building bridges? Not tearing them down?!

[teleee]

F off, nerd! And aren't you supposed to be building bridges? Not tearing them down?!

Have to tear them down to build new ones! Love you too man, when are you going to one visit me so we can continue this conversation over a cold one?

[Gepeto]

Yes, this house screams cocktail party... I picture the sequel to Peter Sellers, "The Party" filmed here.

Not sure about the island, but I see the builders almost every day and can ask.

Would be of interest... my first guess is it's cementitious, pre-mold then molded and polished for ever.
Possibly corian, but that's a dated material. Easy enough to make seams disappear.

[highangle]

There is an entire building at Oregon State that is in the wrong place (by a few feet) because of a surveying error.

See what happens when you use CAD from an architect?... Butsrsly, define "Wrong place". Did the surveyor have to buy the building?

Recently worked on a job where US feet and International Survey feet caused quite an issue.

As an architect? Any job big enough for that to be a valid issue should have already incorporated its own "low distortion projection" (ie State Planes), which would govern the grid and scale factors of its coordinate system (grid to ground conversions are common). It would be a gross error for an engineer or surveyor to not account for his basis of measurement on a big job that likely crossed State Plane zones or State lines where the legal definitions of "Survey Foot" are different.


ALL measurement systems of anything are constructs of convenience. I'm happy and comfortable with whatever makes me $$. Don't like having to buy metric and SAE tools, but that's almost trivial. Done a lot of metric roads and levees, which are easier to calc manually than decimal feet, but no one clacs road curves manually for $$ anymore. SPCS are metric. So are quad sheets. Geodesy uses SI units. It's customary, hence more convenient in my business, to use metric units over large areas, and decimal feet over planes. I use the metric system every day, but I could care less, other than I might be able to charge you more $$ if you want to specify nonstandard units.

BTW, I'm paid to deliver valid media, so you can use my cad and excel deliverables with minimal risk to your professional reputation...