Ok, this global warming shit is getting out of hand...

**wyeaster** · 10-08-2018, 08:59 PM

market based solutions. how cute.

**WMD** · 10-08-2018, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by wyeaster

market based solutions. how cute.

Dismissal of possible solutions is a cute way to not act by making it seem like nothing can work.

**wickstad** · 10-08-2018, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by wyeaster

market based solutions. how cute.

If there is no snow then we will all need a quiver of n-n. Btw, Hood looks bonier than I’ve ever seen it this year. (Just sayin’ and it might just be my imagination!).

**GoldMember** · 10-08-2018, 09:51 PM

Frankly, I don't think climate change is our biggest problem and there isn't any visible solution to what will inevitably be the end of us.

As humans, we're screwed and taking the rest of the planet with us. Disregarding climate change for a minute, the overall population growth rate projects a global population of 10 billion people by about 2050. In the meantime, we search for ways to prolong life, fight disease, stop wars, and every other method to increase the planet's population without regard to how we're ever going to feed and provide fresh water for everyone. According to some best estimates, 10 billion people is about the max that the planet can provide for without massive famine. https://www.livescience.com/16493-pe...h-support.html

Now, throw in climate change and the more acute reduction of fresh water resources, growing capacity, etc. and we escalate what's likely inevitable in a few years, anyway. As food/water pressure grows, societal upheaval occurs and overall social breakdown. There's no winning in this scenario. As a species, we keep reproducing, extending life, and missing out on the past natural methods of culling the herd (famine, disease, war). We've tricked ourselves into what will likely be the extinction of our (and many others) species. Ski while you can, it probably isn't going to last many more decades and losing it will be the least of our problems. I think we're toast by 2050 or so, no matter what steps we take regarding climate change.

"The power of population is so superior to the power of the Earth to produce subsistence for man, that premature death must in some shape or other visit the human race."
The late-18th century philosopher Thomas Malthus wrote these ominous words in an essay on what he saw as the dire future of humanity. Humans' unquenchable urge to reproduce, Malthus argued, would ultimately lead us to overpopulate the planet, eat up all its resources and die in a mass famine."

and

"Many scientists think Earth has a maximum carrying capacity of 9 billion to 10 billion people. [How Do You Count 7 Billion People?]
One such scientist, the eminent Harvard University sociobiologist Edward O. Wilson, bases his estimate on calculations of the Earth's available resources. As Wilson pointed out in his book "The Future of Life" (Knopf, 2002), "The constraints of the biosphere are fixed."
Aside from the limited availability of freshwater, there are indeed constraints on the amount of food that Earth can produce, just as Malthus argued more than 200 years ago. Even in the case of maximum efficiency, in which all the grains grown are dedicated to feeding humans (instead of livestock, which is an inefficient way to convert plant energy into food energy), there's still a limit to how far the available quantities can stretch. "If everyone agreed to become vegetarian, leaving little or nothing for livestock, the present 1.4 billion hectares of arable land (3.5 billion acres) would support about 10 billion people," Wilson wrote."

**SKIP IN7RO** · 10-08-2018, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by WMD

Dismissal of possible solutions is a cute way to not act by making it seem like nothing can work.

Euthanizing and sterilizing is a solution not to be dismissed. It's ugly but would work.

**WMD** · 10-08-2018, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by kokomas

WMD I completely agree with your points. Would love to talk IRL about market based solutions sometime, pm incoming

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using TGR Forums mobile app

Thanks. PM replied to.

**concretejungle** · 10-08-2018, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by WMD

I live 15 miles from the ski hill but drive solo a lot. I've got to change that.

Hopefully you can pull off this market based solution.

The bus that runs every thirty minutes is too much of an inconvenience?

**WMD** · 10-08-2018, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by concretejungle

Hopefully you can pull off this market based solution.

The bus that runs every thirty minutes is too much of an inconvenience?

Another way to make one feel it is ok to not act - calling out hypocrisy of anyone calling for action. If they are hypocrites then I don't need to do anything.

First, I said myself this is something I need to address.

Second, the bus only runs on weekends. Where I find myself driving solo is when I get a free couple hours to ski during the week but need to rush to get back to work.

So yes, waiting for the weekend bus on a weekday is too much of an inconvenience.

Regarding the market based solution, the IPCC's new report says a carbon tax is mandatory and the best way to eliminate fossil fuels. That is a market based solution.

All possible solutions need to be on the table.

**WMD** · 10-08-2018, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by GoldMember

Frankly, I don't think climate change is our biggest problem and there isn't any visible solution to what will inevitably be the end of us.

As humans, we're screwed and taking the rest of the planet with us. Disregarding climate change for a minute, the overall population growth rate projects a global population of 10 billion people by about 2050. In the meantime, we search for ways to prolong life, fight disease, stop wars, and every other method to increase the planet's population without regard to how we're ever going to feed and provide fresh water for everyone. According to some best estimates, 10 billion people is about the max that the planet can provide for without massive famine. https://www.livescience.com/16493-pe...h-support.html

Now, throw in climate change and the more acute reduction of fresh water resources, growing capacity, etc. and we escalate what's likely inevitable in a few years, anyway. As food/water pressure grows, societal upheaval occurs and overall social breakdown. There's no winning in this scenario. As a species, we keep reproducing, extending life, and missing out on the past natural methods of culling the herd (famine, disease, war). We've tricked ourselves into what will likely be the extinction of our (and many others) species. Ski while you can, it probably isn't going to last many more decades and losing it will be the least of our problems. I think we're toast by 2050 or so, no matter what steps we take regarding climate change.

"The power of population is so superior to the power of the Earth to produce subsistence for man, that premature death must in some shape or other visit the human race."
The late-18th century philosopher Thomas Malthus wrote these ominous words in an essay on what he saw as the dire future of humanity. Humans' unquenchable urge to reproduce, Malthus argued, would ultimately lead us to overpopulate the planet, eat up all its resources and die in a mass famine."

and

"Many scientists think Earth has a maximum carrying capacity of 9 billion to 10 billion people. [How Do You Count 7 Billion People?]
One such scientist, the eminent Harvard University sociobiologist Edward O. Wilson, bases his estimate on calculations of the Earth's available resources. As Wilson pointed out in his book "The Future of Life" (Knopf, 2002), "The constraints of the biosphere are fixed."
Aside from the limited availability of freshwater, there are indeed constraints on the amount of food that Earth can produce, just as Malthus argued more than 200 years ago. Even in the case of maximum efficiency, in which all the grains grown are dedicated to feeding humans (instead of livestock, which is an inefficient way to convert plant energy into food energy), there's still a limit to how far the available quantities can stretch. "If everyone agreed to become vegetarian, leaving little or nothing for livestock, the present 1.4 billion hectares of arable land (3.5 billion acres) would support about 10 billion people," Wilson wrote."

You know there are ways to slow population growth that don't include murdering people, war, or refusing health care to the sick.

Empowering women to make decisions about the size of their family and providing access to birth control can make a huge difference. We are not doomed to a planet of 10 billion plus people anytime soon:

"If, on average, there is just half-a-child less per family in the future, there will be one billion fewer of us than the UN expects by 2050 – and four billion fewer by the end of the century (within the lifetimes of many children born today). Billions less mouths to feed, land to use and greenhouse gases to be produced."
https://www.populationmatters.org/reached-7-5-billion/

But yeah, fuck it, don't do anything about climate change.

You guys sure are full of excuses to not act.

Stop looking away from climate change. We can't do anything about it if we keep making excuses to not try.

**WMD** · 10-08-2018, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by SKIP INTRO

Euthanizing and sterilizing is a solution not to be dismissed. It's ugly but would work.

How would it work to curb co2 emissions?

I'm all for it if used on oil and gas CEOs and lobbyists. That would have an impact.

**GoldMember** · 10-08-2018, 11:44 PM

I never said to not do anything about climate change but the real monster is population growth and limited resources. Climate change exacerbates that problem but solving climate change doesn't solve over-population and I don't see anyone really giving it too much thought. Solving climate change only delays the inevitability of population problems. Look at the trajectory of the charts and tell me how population rates are going to reverse direction anytime soon. Sure, you can run the math to show HOW it could be slowed down but tell me how that will be put into action.

**neufox47** · 10-09-2018, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by wyeaster

market based solutions. how cute.

What’s your solution?

The Nobel in economics just went to two guys for their ideas on a carbon tax and incentivizing innovation.

**neufox47** · 10-09-2018, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by GoldMember

I never said to not do anything about climate change but the real monster is population growth and limited resources. Climate change exacerbates that problem but solving climate change doesn't solve over-population and I don't see anyone really giving it too much thought. Solving climate change only delays the inevitability of population problems. Look at the trajectory of the charts and tell me how population rates are going to reverse direction anytime soon. Sure, you can run the math to show HOW it could be slowed down but tell me how that will be put into action.

Provide education to girls and access to birth control. Once you do that they have an average of two kids. The things you mentioned to control population actually have the opposite effect in modern times. After a war people breed, look at WW2. Medicine makes people old, they reproduce before they die mostly.

**kokomas** · 10-09-2018, 06:31 AM

Personal actions are necessary. I'm driving slower, eating less meat and very little beef, and plan to start offsetting my families co2 emissions. By all means do what you can individually. This is not enough though so we also need group action to help change policy. My niche is investing so I'm educating myself in carbon pricing and how investment funds might offset the emissions of the companies they hold. I'm not entirely sure this is a good idea or whether it would just enable bad behavior. So I'm talking to people about it.

That's what I appreciate about WMD and Neufox and others keeping the conversation going. It takes guts to do this, kind of like a family who doesn't like to discuss their problems... Very painful to bring up. So a great personal action seems to be just talking to people about climate change

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using TGR Forums mobile app

**SumJongGuy** · 10-09-2018, 06:46 AM

We faced similar problems back in the 1400s then we found there were more resources and land to steal on the other side of the Atlantic. If there's water on Mars that might be a partial solution.

**wyeaster** · 10-09-2018, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by neufox47

What’s your solution?

The Nobel in economics just went to two guys for their ideas on a carbon tax and incentivizing innovation.

wow! a market-based "solution" won an award in a world dominated by the markets and profit motive that created the problems! it makes so much sense! hopefully mother earth will wait for everybody to make their money and we can live happily ever after!

if market-based solutions don't show true commitment, i don't know what does.

**Sirshredalot** · 10-09-2018, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by WMD

Another way to make one feel it is ok to not act - calling out hypocrisy of anyone calling for action. If they are hypocrites then I don't need to do anything.

First, I said myself this is something I need to address.

Second, the bus only runs on weekends. Where I find myself driving solo is when I get a free couple hours to ski during the week but need to rush to get back to work.

So yes, waiting for the weekend bus on a weekday is too much of an inconvenience.

Regarding the market based solution, the IPCC's new report says a carbon tax is mandatory and the best way to eliminate fossil fuels. That is a market based solution.

All possible solutions need to be on the table.

Are you in a 2 car household? We have a beater EV that we use as our grocery getter and for trips to the local hill. They are cheap to buy and operate and ours is theoretically solar-powered when it charges at home.

**wyeaster** · 10-09-2018, 07:16 AM

Climate Scientist Dr. Sarah Myhre on the Peril and Possibilities Ahead: 'We Need Leadership That Is Not Old and White and Male'

https://theslot.jezebel.com/climate-...oss-1829602131

We need representative leadership. We need leadership that is not old, white, and male. We need leadership that is truly representative of the communities that they serve. That leadership has the capacity to extend moral weight and value to communities of color, indigenous communities, and to women.
One of the next things that we need to do is, we need to indict public brokers of power for their complicity and complacency in the face of this information. That means we look directly at these companies who are the wealthiest companies in the history of this planet. All of the components of leadership of these public companies should be indicted and shamed. They shouldn’t be able to hide between their fancy yachts and their billions of dollars.
We need policy and legislation that can put a price on carbon. We need collective mechanisms to change behavior.
And the last on my list is individual action, because I think that’s often front-loaded in the narrative of climate solutions, and I don’t think that’s appropriate or true. Not eating meat, not eating dairy, taking public transportation, divesting from fossil fuels products, reducing plastic usage. Changing your vehicle to an electric vehicle, reducing or limiting your activity flying. All of those are on the table for individual choices and actions, but what we don’t often talk about is how classist those frames are. Because only the wealthiest of us can buy an electric vehicle and comprehensively reduce our greenhouse gas footprint. Because those of us who are struggling to pay rent, we cannot invest in a new vehicle.
We don’t often talk about the classist frame of climate action and reveal it to be a sort of whitewashing. It disenfranchises huge groups of people and it’s a mechanism for public shaming.

**Sirshredalot** · 10-09-2018, 07:21 AM

That person needs to realize that eating beans and taking the bus is much cheaper than eating steak and driving your own car.

**liv2ski** · 10-09-2018, 07:32 AM

^^^^^Pretty sure that is what I said. As part of your responsibilities, vote the old white guys out kids.

**Slopetime** · 10-09-2018, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Sirshredalot

Dr., how many men and women will we keep alive in the bunker?

Oh yeah, I always liked this idea. That Russian wasn't dumb.

**Conundrum** · 10-09-2018, 08:23 AM

1. Vote for people that will make a change.
2. Don't have kids.
3. All the other personal lifestyle choices that will make a difference but at just a fraction of the first two steps.

**WMD** · 10-09-2018, 08:35 AM

Absolutely. If I drive an EV it won't make the slightest difference at all in curbing climate change. The changes we need are systemic - changing our energy systems to no more fossil fuels, stop deforestation, etc. bit we don't get there if we don't vote, but more importantly if we don't talk about it. We do need to stop our overconsumption and learn to be happy with much less stuff.

I got a call from a candidate for US Congress during the primaries asking for money and help and I asked her what her priorities were. They were all good but there was no mention of climate change. I told her i feel climate change should be our number one priority. She said she'd heard something about a carbon tax so I explained the concept over the next 10 minutes or so.

No one had mentioned climate change as a priority to her in her previous calls.

We need to talk about climate change and demand action. Just voting won't get us all the way there. Vote for the right people and then let them know we expect serious action on this issue.

**Slopetime** · 10-09-2018, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Conundrum

1. Vote for people that will make a change.
2. Don't have kids.
3. All the other personal lifestyle choices that will make a difference but at just a fraction of the first two steps.

Don't forget no farting.

**Slopetime** · 10-09-2018, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by WMD

Absolutely. If I drive an EV it won't make the slightest difference at all in curbing climate change. The changes we need are systemic - changing our energy systems to no more fossil fuels, stop deforestation, etc. bit we don't get there if we don't vote, but more importantly if we don't talk about it. We do need to stop our overconsumption and learn to be happy with much less stuff.

I got a call from a candidate for US Congress during the primaries asking for money and help and I asked her what her priorities were. They were all good but there was no mention of climate change. I told her i feel climate change should be our number one priority. She said she'd heard something about a carbon tax so I explained the concept over the next 10 minutes or so.

No one had mentioned climate change as a priority to her in her previous calls.

We need to talk about climate change and demand action. Just voting won't get us all the way there. Vote for the right people and then let them know we expect serious action on this issue.

The changes that would need to be made are only going to come from the gov't. They are the only ones with the power to make legislation and enforce it.

Any major, abrupt changes would kill commerce and inflation would be an issue for the folks who are least equipped to deal with it's effects.

Matters not what we do, China is pumping out Co2 at a furious pace that is dwarfing ours currently.