Is it OK to have spokes bend at the cross point?

[couloirman]

Terrible pics, its tough to photograph.

I am finally getting around to building a new set of Light-bike carbon rims with CX ray spokes, DT240 hubs and 2 cross lacing pattern with 24/28 spoke counts.

Unfortunately, about halfway through initial tightening my spokes started tightening up too much before my nipple driver disengaged (so maybe they are a tad short) but all the spoke threads are hidden by nipple so I figured it would be OK with enough thread engagement to try to continue. I know the spokes shouldn't be very tight at initial tensioning but I wanted to try to salvage this build since these spokes are expensive. The bigger issue that I am concerned about is that there is a couple degrees of spoke bend at the cross point which I tried to photograph here but it's tough to get a good pic of. I don't have a built bike wheel in my possession at the moment (at my parents house on vacation right now) so I cant see a real wheel to see if this is OK, but, is it OK for there to be a couple degrees of spoke bend at the cross point where the spokes touch and are interlaced? Or maybe I messed up lacing this thing?

[kidwoo]

Those are sapims?

Unless there's something specific warning against it, that's just what wheels do in a 3x pattern. And the only way you could get it to NOT do that is if there's a directional nipple hole in the rim that you mis matched or something. Some carbon rims are pretty specific about this. But that's a normal looking setup. 2 crosses behind near the hub, and then one overlapped 3rd cross, or two cross for some 28 spoke setups. Either way, that last cross does the same thing.

[couloirman]

It's actually supposed to be a 2 cross. I thought it only counts as a cross if the spoke comes from the same side of the hub? If that's the case that would probably explain why my spokes were too short. I really thought I laced it OK though......

Yeah Sapim CX ray spokes, light bike carbon rims, DT240 hubs

[toast2266]

Looks like normal 2 cross to me. Also looks fine. If they're not fully up to tension, the bends where they cross will likely become less obvious as you tighten them. Like woo said, only thing that isn't obvious is if the holes in the rim need to be matched up with a particular spoke orientation. You can help set the spoke heads into the hub flange and reduce the "kinkiness" at the cross by sticking a screwdriver into the the little triangle below the cross and leveraging it against the spokes.

[kidwoo]

It's actually supposed to be a 2 cross. I thought it only counts as a cross if the spoke comes from the same side of the hub? If that's the case that would probably explain why my spokes were too short. I really thought I laced it OK though......

Yeah Sapim CX ray spokes, light bike carbon rims, DT240 hubs

It's way easier to see on another built wheel but any overlap is a 'cross'. The first one on 3x barely even exists. But yeah those look fine as long as you haven't violated the rim hole angle or anything.

Those spokes pressing up against each other are part of what makes a wheel have strength. Like toast said, they won't look like that once you tighten them.

[couloirman]

violated the rim hole angle or anything.

Well, there is a slight angle between the spoke and the nipple where they meet. This rim is from when LB straight drilled all their spoke holes so no way for a spoke to enter at exactly the same angle as the nipple protrudes unless the nipple was seated in the rim at an angle. The rim is drilled so the spoke holes are not staggered, and not angled.

[Finstah]

Your lacing job looks correct and if all the spoke threads are covered by the nipple after the initial lace up, I'd say you are good to go ahead and tension/true/dish that thing up.

If you are still concerned that the spokes may be a mm. or two short, you could always swap out to longer nipples (14mm or 16mm). A box of nipples would be considerably cheaper than a box of spokes.

[couloirman]

Your lacing job looks correct and if all the spoke threads are covered by the nipple after the initial lace up, I'd say you are good to go ahead and tension/true/dish that thing up.

If you are still concerned that the spokes may be a mm. or two short, you could always swap out to longer nipples (14mm or 16mm). A box of nipples would be considerably cheaper than a box of spokes.

That is an excellent idea. Might also get a nipple driver for electric drill with adjustable probe depth so I can still tighten them all the same amount at the beginning, just have that amount be less.

Thanks a ton guys. You have given me confidence to proceed. Will report back with results after beer o'clock.

[Ted Striker]

I thought it only counts as a cross if the spoke comes from the same side of the hub?

You are correct. The number of spokes emanating from the same flange crossed.

[Anospa]

Its kinda shocking how much abuse spokes can go through while you are building a wheel. Bending and moving them through the lacing process freaked me out originally, but some youtubing calmed me down.

[Damian Sanders]

That is an excellent idea. Might also get a nipple driver for electric drill with adjustable probe depth so I can still tighten them all the same amount at the beginning, just have that amount be less.

Thanks a ton guys. You have given me confidence to proceed. Will report back with results after beer o'clock.

29er? That is definitely 2x from the pics....interesting choice on a low flange hub, but I guess that standard lacing on a 24h. Acceleration and braking torque is going to put a huge amount of force into those spokes, due to the large lever arm of the large wheel working against the small lever arm of the low flange and spoke angle (as measured perpendicular to the spoke axis to the axle). Possibly even enough to fully de-tension them in some situations. With the cx-rays there will be considerable wheel windup when ridden, maybe even noticeably so. I would make sure you hit max recommended spoke tension and consider building with removable loctite on the spoke threads.

If your spokes are too short and do not enter the head of the nipple (they should get up into the slot), you will break the heads off alloy nipples rather quickly, epecially on a wheel like this one with major swings in dynamic spoke tension when ridden.

On a side note, I'm not a fan of the whole reduced spoke count fashion trend. Spokes are a major component of wheel stiffness and strength. Moving to a wider rim doesn't really build a better wheel if you cut the spoke count by 25% and use very thin spokes. The wheel flexes differently, in that the rim acts as a solid ring and moves around under load relative to the hub, vs. a traditional narrow rim simply flexing. Given the very small weight savings, you're better off staying with 32H 3-cross in most cases. I recently built 32 3x with 14/15g LF, RR, and 14/17g RF, LR, which compensates for spoke angle and balances out lateral stiffness.

These are cool, high end wheels following current trends, but from a system design perspective, they are marginal.

[couloirman]

Yeah, I totally hear what you are saying. I only weigh 160 lbs, and I have 2 different wheelsets for the same bike for 2 different purposes-- the other set being Derby AM rims built 32/32 for real mountain biking, and these are going to be used for gravel grinding/touring. I figured these wheels would be good enough for that, and I wanted this set to be different enough from my Derby rims to justify the cost of having a second set. But I do fully understand there is more of a risk of these wheels failing. I just hope its not a catastrophic failure that sends me flying! I figured more likely it would more likely be a spoke break that makes my wheel untrue that I will band aid on the trail and replace at home. But I have been wrong before........

The kinds of rides these will be used on are the D2R2, Great Allegheny Passage, commuting, etc... with skinny-ish 38 tires setup tubeless. Also probably going to start cyclocross racing this season and thought this would be a fast wheelset for that. I thought 24/28 carbon wheelsets were pretty common for this kind of thing?

[couloirman]

Also, can anyone explain to me why I'm not supposed to trust my park ts 2.2 truing stands built in dishing gauge even if I use the centering gauge to calibrate the stand before each use? Why would I need a separate dishing gauge if I also use the centering gauge for the stand itself? All I see on the Internet is 'don't trust it' and I can't understand why...

[kidwoo]

If you're checking the center of your truing stand, you're fine. A regular dishing tool is still better because your stand can still get off opening and closing the arms but it'll be really damn close. Enough to not worry about for MTB wheels.

[couloirman]

your stand can still get off opening and closing the arms

This was the only explanation I could come up with in my head but I have been using the centering gauge for the stand every time I start truing and it hasn't even moved. Thanks.

[reynolds.trailrun]

As woo said it can be slightly off due to taking on/off. On disc brake wheel it is not enough to really matter unless you are using a tire size that does not allow much tire clearance. For rim brakes it can be off enough to annoy though still better than a mavic rim with eyelets ripping out from my personal experience.

[couloirman]

I've got tone of clearance for this wheelset. Using Challenge Gravel Grinder PLUS wheels in a mountain bike frame.


Man I am getting insane trying to figure out when to call it quits on being true enough. I know errors in truing look worse in a stand without a tire on but it's hard to stop when it can always be a little better...

[couloirman]

Pretty even spoke tension by sound. Starting to get difficult to turn some of the disc side nipples but non disc side feels very easy to turn nipples still. Trueness is getting close. Not sure I can make it much better than this. Several small imperfections in both radial and lateral trueness but overall looking like it's shaping up ok and I hear that errors are magnified in the truing stand so maybe I'll try to get another half turn out of everything and call it good soon with how hard a few of those nipples are to turn.

I did the whole take the wheel out of the stand lay it on the ground and push real hard all around the rim and it didn't seem to do much.

[pureantigravity]

Good on you for doing this yourself.