Relationship between foot length and body height vs. shell size and cuff height

[AweShuksan]

I'll start by stating the obvious:

There is a strong correlation between foot length and body height. There are always exceptions but this relationship has been shown to be strong. A persons height is generally 6.5 times the length of their foot.

Also, a taller skier can benefit from a proportionally higher boot cuff and longer skis. Said another way, the relationship between center of body mass vs. cuff height and center of body mass and ski length needs to be maintained to retain similar dynamics between short skiers (with a lower center of gravity (cog) and taller skier (with higher cog).

The question is: Do boot makers maintain the same ratio of shell length to cuff height through thru range of shell sizes in a given model of boot? I don't have a range of shell sizes handy with which to compare but I suggest the proper way to measure is to compare the ratio of the intended foot length of a given shell to the distance from the heel footbed to the top of the cuff in an easy to measure location (probably the center rear). This ratio should remain constant throughout the range of sizes of a given boot model. But does it?

The reason I ask is because I'm 6'-04" and my boot cuffs always feel too short, even my Lange RX130's feel short (29.5 shell size).

[pfluffenmeister]

I'll start by stating the obvious:

There is a strong correlation between foot length and body height. There are always exceptions but this relationship has been shown to be strong. A persons height is generally 6.5 times the length of their foot..

Hmmm, a person is typically 7 times taller than the height of their head.
Which would make a person's foot roughly the size of their head.
If that's the case how does one get one's foot in one's mouth?

[volklpowdermaniac]

Get the red ones

[BrokeSomeRibs]

For what it's worth, I'm in the same boat. 6'2" with comparatively long legs (and a very short torso - usually wear a size Medium pack). All my ski boots barely come up to mid shin. Pretty uncomfortable. I'd love to have my boots with an extra inch of cuff height.

[charles martel]

It's not just cuff height, but the cuff rivet:

1) Placement or height should match up with where your foot and lower leg bend.

2) Should have the inner rivert either higher than or even to the outer rivet. If it's lower, it's in a rotational position that causes your knee to angulate in as you bend your leg. Not good for technique, which calls for a leg bending in the sagital plane, not rotating inwards toward the frontal plane.

Further, the tongue should match the top of the foot, ankle flex and lower leg. It's there's either a gap or too much pressure there, this makes for a difficult ski experience.

The fad among higher end skiers a few years ago was to get World Cup plug style boots custom fitted. This cost a shitload. It also means you won't have all the foot movement you get in consumer boots. The trade-off is instant response in ski movement with minimal time lag. You want to go edge to edge quickly or make subtle turn shape differences, plugs are the way to go. But, you have the cold from the thin liner and no real room to move your foot if you're in the boot for a long time. There is no comparison between the response/control of plugs vs. consumer boots. But, I'd avoid them unless you are competing with hopes of a real race career, a la NorAm, Europa, NCAA or J1 or 2.

Also, too many boot fitters make the arch too high (too much posting) in most custom orthotics. This is misaligns you, limits your total movement and can cause foot pain. The foot should be supported so you feel comfortable while you go through your range of movement while standing and skiing. The arch should be enough to prevent your foot from collapsing when you bend your leg while standing on your feet.

The boots may need to be canted so that your knees' CMs flex forward over your inner middle of your feet, over the 2nd or between 2nd and 3rd metatarsal. Each leg may need to be aligned differently. I'm 3 1/2 in on my left and 1 in on my right.

If you are misaligned a lot, you can ski properly.

Find a good boot fitter. Spend some time and go back a few times to let him/her think it over as you do the same.

Each foot, even between the two you have are different.

[auvgeek]

^^Very interesting read in general, but I'm really curious about the quoted portion below.

Also, too many boot fitters make the arch too high (too much posting) in most custom orthotics. This is misaligns you, limits your total movement and can cause foot pain. The foot should be supported so you feel comfortable while you go through your range of movement while standing and skiing. The arch should be enough to prevent your foot from collapsing when you bend your leg while standing on your feet.

What makes you say that? I always thought that getting the foot in subtalar neutral was the goal. Of course, the skier needs to work on his/her dorsiflexion in subtalar neutral, but I always thought it was the "anatomically correct" position.

Curious to hear your opinion.

PS. I'm a total layperson, but still curious.

[charles martel]

It has to do with a functional flat foot. Such a foot needs a little help, not a total rebuild with a large arch in the orthotic. As my ortho doc/foot specialist told me: there is a large range in what is considered normal nowadays.

[creaky fossil]

Functional neutral vs fixed neutral? Didn't pedorthists go through this between 1980s and present? What does fixed neutral (anatomic perfection/ideal) have to do with function? Seems more an idea for a skeleton to be studied in anatomy class, and less an idea for athletic performance.

In the 2000-2010 decade, EpicSki's arch-enemy Harald Harb was a proselytizer for the pivot location idea Martel offered above, talking about lateral vs rotary boots.

[Ted Striker]

In the 2000-2010 decade, EpicSki's arch-enemy Harald Harb was a proselytizer for the pivot location idea Martel offered above, talking about lateral vs rotary boots.

That's what I was going to say.

And how many boots fit that "ideal"? -actual question (since I once I get my boots dialed, I use them until they literally fall apart)

[creaky fossil]

Yup. If you're an active person and you've done a lot of running/cutting sports with whatever arch support your shoes gave you, and you suddenly went into a heavily posted footbed (a/k/a anatomic ideal) for skiing, it's not gonna feel ideal at all! Probably would push you onto little toe edge, would definitely feel like there's no foot suspension action. I'd almost expect knee & possibly hip discomfort.

[charles martel]

Functional neutral vs fixed neutral? Didn't pedorthists go through this between 1980s and present? What does fixed neutral (anatomic perfection/ideal) have to do with function? Seems more an idea for a skeleton to be studied in anatomy class, and less an idea for athletic performance.

In the 2000-2010 decade, EpicSki's arch-enemy Harald Harb was a proselytizer for the pivot location idea Martel offered above, talking about lateral vs rotary boots.

No one mentioned "functional neutral vs. fixed neutral." You want to stir up controversy, go somewhere else.

And, it wasn't just Harb, but many WC boot fitters who did work then and continue to work today with inner pivot relation to outer pivot, and actual pivot height in relation to ankle flex.

When you lump together "pedorthists from 1980 to the present," you imply everyone was wrong, that the whole thing was a monolithic mistake. Far from it. A great deal of progress has been made in the past 30 years in understanding the foot as part of a biomechanical body that constitutes a system.

That's what I was going to say.

And how many boots fit that "ideal"? -actual question (since I once I get my boots dialed, I use them until they literally fall apart)

You are confusing the issue by introducing the word "ideal," since it implies an external standard that each foot should be adjusted to with an orthotic. In reality, each foot/skeletal system is different. What you want today is functional movement specific to the sport.

Yup. If you're an active person and you've done a lot of running/cutting sports with whatever arch support your shoes gave you, and you suddenly went into a heavily posted footbed (a/k/a anatomic ideal) for skiing, it's not gonna feel ideal at all! Probably would push you onto little toe edge, would definitely feel like there's no foot suspension action. I'd almost expect knee & possibly hip discomfort.

1) There is no anatomic ideal for skiing. Anyone who says so would have too prove contemporary biomechanics wrong.

2) Yes, again, over-posting is not good. Not only is it going to push someone into bow leggedness, but it is going to cause pain in the arch, remove an ability for the foot to act as as spring and weaken the leg..

[creaky fossil]

You want to stir up controversy, go somewhere else.

I was agreeing with you, chazzy. So I'm laughing. A pile of bontex shims is yours if you tell me who you're trying to parody!

[Vt-Freeheel]

[Ted Striker]

It's not just cuff height, but the cuff rivet:

2) Should have the inner rivert either higher than or even to the outer rivet. If it's lower, it's in a rotational position that causes your knee to angulate in as you bend your leg. Not good for technique, which calls for a leg bending in the sagital plane, not rotating inwards toward the frontal plane.

And how many boots fit that "ideal"?

You are confusing the issue by introducing the word "ideal," since it implies an external standard that each foot should be adjusted to with an orthotic. In reality, each foot/skeletal system is different. What you want today is functional movement specific to the sport.

Sorry wasn't clear... I meant ideal cuff rivet placement. Many (most?) boots seem to have the inner lower than the outer. IIRC, Harb called them "rotary" boots. I dunno, I haven't shopped for alpine boots in over a decade.

If you're an active person and you've done a lot of running/cutting sports with whatever arch support your shoes gave you, and you suddenly went into a heavily posted footbed (a/k/a anatomic ideal) for skiing, it's not gonna feel ideal at all! Probably would push you onto little toe edge, would definitely feel like there's no foot suspension action. I'd almost expect knee & possibly hip discomfort.

True dat. My feet are a mess, and I destroy footwear fairly quickly. New, or overly stiff, or overly posted insoles, do not feel good. Some flexibility is obviously a good thing.

[mntlion]

no way, different types of boots, heights, and footbeds work for different people?

other then red boots, there is no other magic bullet to make everyone happy all the time....

[briandcades@gmail.com]

Hey Charles, this is very interesting. I have a couple of questions. New to Teton, not sure how this platform works.

[skizix]

New to Teton, not sure how this platform works.

It's super fucking complicated. Don't even try to get started.

[oftpiste]

It's super fucking complicated. Don't even try to get started JONG.

fify

[mntlion]

PM rontell for questions

[Viva]

A persons dick length is generally 6.5 times the length of their foot.

[Mudfoot]

I'm 6'4" and recommend Booster Straps to help resolve boot inequities for tall people. They effectively make your boots taller while giving the cuffs a more even progressive flex.

[skizix]

I'm 6'4" and recommend Booster Straps to help resolve boot inequities for tall people. They effectively make your boots taller while giving the cuffs a more even progressive flex.

Kinda like a cock ring

[oftpiste]

^^I recommend both, as a tall person of course

[rabbit]

Hmmm, a person is typically 7 times taller than the height of their head.
Which would make a person's foot roughly the size of their head.
If that's the case how does one get one's foot in one's mouth?

With great skill.