Police Behaving Badly

[Foggy_Goggles]

Agreed, so what is that?

I think our Sherriff's does a pretty good job at many things. But de-escalation in routine interactions with the citizenry is not one of them.

If those thugs thought Tyreek was a threat and simply wanted to perform a traffic stop, I can think of about a thousand thinks they could have do differently. A mean fuck, if the protocol for getting pulled over is you want everyone to throw their keys out the window, exit the vehicle and put there hands up, I think that would be preferred to the get in your face, assult style that is prevelant.

I got pulled over by a Statie a couple of years ago. In retrospect, it was pretty obvious he was looking for someone. He style was totally professional, respectful and business like. I could tell he was concerned that I may be a threat. No yelling, no animation, no random stupid questions.

Just because you have a hard job, don't mean you can not follow policy and be an asshole.

[m2711c]

We are judging an entire profession on some really bad apples. But also judging a profession with a lot of good people doing a really horrible job.

The problem with that is you’re only using half of the proverb. These days it’s known as “it only takes one bad apple to spoil the barrel”. or as my buddy ben franklin would say, “ The rotten apple spoils his companion”… or as my ‘ol pal goeff chaucer would say
“wel bet is roten appul out of hoord, than that it rotie the rememaunt. it is full lasse harm to lete hym pace, than he shende alle the servantz in the place”

geoff really had a way with words…

The thing is, these is supposed “bad apples“ can only get away with what they get away with because the rest of the cops in the barrel are allowing them to get away with it. They stand right there and watch them and don’t do a thing about it. why? Because when it becomes their turn to do something illegal, they expect their buddies to have their back. This is why the whole bad apple thing is a canard That is being used to distract from systemic problems we have with our police force.

And not everybody has armed police doing this job. Cops in England are just given stout sticks. I’d rather have a beaten from a guy with a stout stick and then being shot by a guy using a Glock As his service pistol. Those things really hurt.





fact.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/word...etaphor-phrase

[californiagrown]

We'll never successfully address the "police behaving badly" issue w/out completely remaking police culture. Even so called good cops "go along to get along", and stand behind the "thin blue line" - that is the core issue. There are virtually no individual cops able to stand up to corruption and when the rare one gets into power(Keechant Sewell, NYPD) they are quickly kicked to the curb when some cop needs cover for a misdeed or crime.

In my mind this is the problem. We have normalized illegal and excessive use of power and force by cops to such an extent that the ubiquitous advice for anyone dealing with a cop is that you should bend over backwards to be deferential so that they dont abuse their power. At the end of the day, the vast majority of police interactions are simply Customer Service... can you imagine any other industry where EVERYONE feels the need to be submissive and deferential to the CS rep for fear of having the CS rep beat you, trump up charges, unlawfully detain you, etc? Its insane. The culture among LEOs is that they all have to be dominant, and enforce their will on civilians around them, and that an attack on one of their egos is an attack on the whole force. It is an unspoken accepted norm that you will have to break a few eggs to make an omelette, and who cares if it was a bad egg you broke, and so pushing to and past the limits of their power often is SOP.


How often do large abuses of power get reported? A lot. How often do small abuses of power get reported? Rarely, because most people simply dont know its an abuse, or dont want the hassle of reporting. How often do iffy abuses of power get reported? Almost never, becuase again people dont know the difference and dominant, overbearing behavior by police is normal. What this all leads to is a culture within PDs were abuse of power, and chronic overstepping is the normal, and in such an ego driven, macho world, questioning someone or calling them out for "ticky tack" abuses of power is frowned upon.


Cops are on edge because of possible violent situations. No argument there. Its possible to be on high alert, while also being polite and nice, and patient. Cop culture is that they are all the baddest hammers on the street, and because of that they start seeing nails everywhere.

[m2711c]

^^^ fact.

[Foggy_Goggles]

I'd just like to point out that this is the most I've agreed with CaliGrown...ever.

Even more broadly, it seems that those that know there rights, stand up for themselves and generally are the ACLU poster children are considered a threat.

So we have this loop where increasingly tyrannical behavior is causing a citizen response that the LEO community is using as justification for lets just call in aggressive action.

I look at the Jacob Glass killing or when our Sherriff shot at an suspect (that is cop defined right as in suspected of a crime) armed with a kitchen knife and mental health challenges inside a motel room (nobody else there, they broke down the door) or this Tyreek Hill think as folllows:

What if the cops just kept there distance and did nothing. What risk to themselves or anyone else would escalate? Frequently the answer is nothing.

[Trackhead]

The thing is, these is supposed “bad apples“ can only get away with what they get away with because the rest of the cops in the barrel are allowing them to get away with it.

This is true. Agreed.

I work ER, and the cynicism can get very very bad sometimes, which adversely affects patient care. But work culture can divert to a more positive attitude and better patient care if the majority of people don't voice their cynicism.

So yeah, good point, it takes a village to change the culture.

[jono]

Is it any less relevant?

Was this a serious question? Did you need to ask if 35-40 year old stats are less relevant--after seeing that newer ones aren't the same?

Credibility is not helped by leaving it to others to track down the source of a convenient but irrelevant data point.

[Trackhead]

For those implying Tyreek's celebrity/athlete status conferred no threat, I'd argue his history of/and admission to felony domestic assault and battery by strangulation probably refutes this. Probably broke his kids arm, too.

Piece of shit cop over-reacted to piece of shit human. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Tyreek is a steaming pile of shit who gets paid a ton of $$ by the NFL and the fans who don't give a shit about his life off the field. It's ironic this millionaire spoiled punk wants the cop fired, but beats his kid/wife, and still wants fans to let him keep his job.

[Trackhead]

Was this a serious question? Did you need to ask if 35-40 year old stats are less relevant--after seeing that newer ones aren't the same?

Credibility is not helped by leaving it to others to track down the source of a convenient but irrelevant data point.

Point was when most interactions with police go really bad, not the statistical number set. It's relevant because it shows why cops are on edge when encountering vehicles after traffic stops.

Repost of highlight:
The majority of these were killed during the approach, when they were 6-9 feet from the violator's vehicle. A significant proportion of the police officers were shot while leaving their police vehicles. A substantial number of the violators who killed officers at this juncture had just committed or were wanted for a crime.

[Hopeless Sinner]

NYC Mayor Adams', a former NYPD Captain, replacement for NYPD Police Commissioner Keechant Sewell was Edward Caban.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/12/n...smid=url-share



NYT - "New York City on Tuesday reached a $175,000 settlement with a Staten Island police officer who said he had been a victim of retaliation for giving traffic tickets to people with connections to the upper echelons of the Police Department."

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/10/n...smid=url-share

[jono]

Point was when most interactions with police go really bad, not the statistical number set. It's relevant because it shows why cops are on edge when encountering vehicles after traffic stops.

Repost of highlight:
The majority of these were killed during the approach, when they were 6-9 feet from the violator's vehicle. A significant proportion of the police officers were shot while leaving their police vehicles. A substantial number of the violators who killed officers at this juncture had just committed or were wanted for a crime.

Do you realize they don't actually say what fraction were killed by the people they stopped? "Substantial" is not a number.

So the carefully chosen language says that 35 years ago, cops were most likely to be killed when they were walking up to the window and 6-9 feet away.

Let's consider the ones that were hit by a passing car. How far away do you think those were from the window, on average? That was a great argument (35 years ago) for walking up the passenger side instead of being out in traffic. Luckily, in the last 35 years, police have had a chance to improve their procedures.

[Trackhead]

Do you realize they don't actually say what fraction were killed by the people they stopped? "Substantial" is not a number.

So the carefully chosen language says that 35 years ago, cops were most likely to be killed when they were walking up to the window and 6-9 feet away.

Let's consider the ones that were hit by a passing car. How far away do you think those were from the window, on average? That was a great argument (35 years ago) for walking up the passenger side instead of being out in traffic. Luckily, in the last 35 years, police have had a chance to improve their procedures.

It's ok we disagree. And as I said before, death should not be the end point for a statistic. It's the worst of many horrible outcomes.

Yes, cop in Tyreek's case was over-aggressive, but in context of perpetual police danger, there is some understanding why they behave this way, while I agree it isn't right.

[californiagrown]

For those implying Tyreek's celebrity/athlete status conferred no threat,

Thats not what im saying... as i said earlier if they had pulled him over in a different area, at 3am on a tuesday night, that is a totally different situation. Its not about his celebrity and what treatment that entitles him to. Its that his celebrity immediately removes a ton of scary unknowns right off the bat: Who is this? what is he doing here? Is this guy likely high or drunk? Is this guy likely to run from us or fight his way free? Etc. etc.

He was 1 block from the players entrance arriving to the stadium on gameday in broad daylight. It is/was glaringly obvious that given the totality of the situation there was no threat to the officers. And they knew that. Its utter nonsense to argue the cops were concerned for their safety... at any point. The cops were not concerned for their safety. The cops were concerned for their authority.

[riser4]

Thats not what im saying... as i said earlier if they had pulled him over in a different area, at 3am on a tuesday night, that is a totally different situation. Its not about his celebrity and what treatment that entitles him to. Its that his celebrity immediately removes a ton of scary unknowns right off the bat: Who is this? what is he doing here? Is this guy likely high or drunk? Is this guy likely to run from us or fight his way free? Etc. etc.

He was 1 block from the players entrance arriving to the stadium on gameday in broad daylight. It is/was glaringly obvious that given the totality of the situation there was no threat to the officers. And they knew that. Its utter nonsense to argue the cops were concerned for their safety... at any point. The cops were not concerned for their safety. The cops were concerned for their authority.

/Thread

[Trackhead]

cops were not concerned for their safety. The cops were concerned for their authority.

Agreed again. You're discussing this case specifically, and my frame is more from a perspective of recognizing the difficulty/dangerous nature of their jobs. You bring up good points.

We want our cops to be perfect, to have instant perfect judgment, to not over-react to a threat, to make perfect risk assessments instantly, to not react to their authority being questioned, to not have fear. I think we can all agree that would be the perfect scenario for everyone involved but it's a pretty tall order for a human being. I also think personal responsibility comes into play as well.

[riser4]

Agreed again. You're discussing this case specifically, and my frame is more from a perspective of recognizing the difficulty/dangerous nature of their jobs. You bring up good points.

We want our cops to be perfect, to have instant perfect judgment, to not over-react to a threat, to make perfect risk assessments instantly, to not react to their authority being questioned, to not have fear. I think we can all agree that would be the perfect scenario for everyone involved but it's a pretty tall order for a human being. I also think personal responsibility comes into play as well.

You need to stop trying to be right on this one.

[californiagrown]

Agreed again. You're discussing this case specifically, and my frame is more from a perspective of recognizing the difficulty/dangerous nature of their jobs. You bring up good points.

We want our cops to be perfect, to have instant perfect judgment, to not over-react to a threat, to make perfect risk assessments instantly, to not react to their authority being questioned, to not have fear. I think we can all agree that would be the perfect scenario for everyone involved but it's a pretty tall order for a human being. I also think personal responsibility comes into play as well.

I think cops have one of the most difficult jobs to do well on planet earth. The day to day duties vary widely, its dangerous, its incredibly stressful, you get judged harshly for the job you do, and you pretty much only deal with people on one of the worst days of their lives. Incredibly difficult job to do well. I dont expect cops to be perfect. I expect them to make some honest mistakes while trying to do the right thing.


What i have a problem with is cops using extralegal methods and/or using excessive force in order to protect and defend their egos or sense of authority.


In football terms (because it seems prescient here), i dont have too much of a problem with my guy getting a pass interference penalty. I do very much have a problem with my guy getting an unsportsmanlike penalty for taunting. One is an honest mistake made while competing to serve the team, while the other is a mistake made while serving their own personal ego.

[old goat]

Is it any less relevant?

Citing deaths alone as the primary end point is like saying a school shooting isn't a big deal if only 10 kids got shot and none were killed. It doesn't capture the true danger/result.

It is important to understand the magnitude of the problem when considering potential solutions.
In the case of cops being shot, does the magnitude of the problem justify a shoot first policy? I say no.

Funny thing is, the solution to both problems is the same. Gun control.

[old goat]

This is true. Agreed.

I work ER, and the cynicism can get very very bad sometimes, which adversely affects patient care. But work culture can divert to a more positive attitude and better patient care if the majority of people don't voice their cynicism.

So yeah, good point, it takes a village to change the culture.

Working in the ER I'm sure you've seen the difference in how a nurse handles an aggressive drunk and how a cop does it. Which one is likely to get the drunk calmed down?

I've often wondered why cops always have to solve a situation immediately. Subject potentially armed, alone at home, refusing to come out. How many of those situations can be solved by just waiting the guy out? Is a speedy resolution worth a cop or a suspect getting killed. Obviously there are many situations in which the cops have to be aggressive, but it seems to me thare are some that could have been better handled with patience.

[mcski]

It wasn’t that long ago that the SOP was to wait it out. Now it seems like they couldn’t be in more of a hurry

Nurse vs Cop would be a great film to document all this aggression. Hipaa notwithstanding

[old goat]

Then there was the ER doc at the hospital I trained at--holdover from County days--who sewed the drunks ears to the gurney to suture their head and face lacs. The good old days weren't all that great.

[Trackhead]

It wasn’t that long ago that the SOP was to wait it out. Now it seems like they couldn’t be in more of a hurry

Nurse vs Cop would be a great film to document all this aggression. Hipaa notwithstanding

Well, honestly that broad judgment of police in the ER isn’t accurate in my observation. 30 years in this business and I can tell you without a doubt, in the setting of the ER, cops are usually pretty quiet and neutral in ER with people they bring in. Maybe it’s because it’s not their setting.

Nurses can be very very instigating, just like cops. Often times using excessive force (not all nurses are female). Sometimes a combative psych patient might be seconds away from compliance and one burnt out nurse pops in the room and it all goes to shit. Just like the bad apple cop. I’ve seen combative asshole patients get their asses kicked by nurses. I’ve also seen the reverse.

So this cynicism towards humanity is pretty common in cops, firefighters, healthcare. Only difference is one profession has a gun, the other two have ketamine.

I’ve also seen some VERY impressive takedowns female nurse completing on grown ass men. Usually it’s an older seasoned ER nurse carrying a little extra weight. Do not fuck with those nurses

[Flounder]

Funny thing is, the solution to both problems is the same. Gun control.

This deserves a repost. If the police are so terrified of being shot that they can’t do their job properly then they should be demanding reasonable gun controls. Of course they are not and often they are doing the exact opposite, especially the constitutional sheriff movement.

[Trackhead]

This deserves a repost. If the police are so terrified of being shot that they can’t do their job properly then they should be demanding reasonable gun controls. Of course they are not and often they are doing the exact opposite, especially the constitutional sheriff movement.

They have/are it seems.

https://www.theiacp.org/sites/defaul...2018%20(1).pdf

But like any political opinion the responses are nuanced and not 100% agreement obviously.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38066220/

[frorider]

I give credit to Tyreek for stating that if he’d kept the window down it likely would’ve helped the situation. And in this internet saturated age I do get his point that celebrities instinctively try to hide themselves or at least limit their exposure during a situation like this to lessen the chance of viral videos filmed by the public.

I’m not a celebrity obviously but if I were, and in a public setting like this I can imagine myself trying to keep the window up as much as possible but also worrying whether that would piss off the cop.

Speaking of his domestic abuse — I remember this interesting analysis of the NFL: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...g-nfl-players/