but there's no flow to that trail

[thewon]

Funny you say that as I was thinking the same thing seeing the dirt flying and imagining the ruts forming and roots baring. But, it was for a video...so whatever. Hoping he wouldn't ride that way all the time.

being trailbuilders it's automatic for us to cringe a bit at the trail/riding. but it ain't our trails and the riding is sick, sofuckit!

[buttahflake]

i live in NH, never been to whole foods, what's it like?
i don't recycle anything, sers.
it all goes in the trash, redneck picks it up in a garbage truck, once a week.

[strawjack]

i live in NH, never been to whole foods, what's it like?

It's bitchin'! There's a lot of hate in here about the place, but I've only been to the one in Portland and the food and chicks are a wonderful thing.

And, Recycle you redneck fuck!

[creaky fossil]

i live in NH, never been to whole foods, what's it like?
i don't recycle anything, sers.
it all goes in the trash, redneck picks it up in a garbage truck, once a week.

so you're not the moose I saw. thanks for clearing that up.

[buttahflake]

no worries, guy.

[kidwoo]

yes, it does look like that, a lot like a recent Ben Reid video I watched where I thought, WTF he's on an XL frame

but

should trails be designed to make frames traveling on them look small because every move is zombie easy?



yes, soul-less. I sold mine decades ago and never retrieved it from that lobsterfaced goathorned dude.

I would say this discussion makes more sense if we talk about forests vs ski resorts as location of trails to be built/designed as flow or not, and I would also ask if it would please people to see aggressive mechanized movement and sculpting of snow on their favorite natural terrain ski hill, in order to dumb down the challenging parts with judicious snow placement and sculpting.

Ben Reid is the original 'bars too big, can't move elbows anymore' steeze.
That wasn't any sort of comment on that trail, just that he's obviously working way harder on that bike than on one that actually fits him. He's not doing anything in that video that's outside what most people consider normal mountain biking, but the bike makes it look more difficult.

But even ski areas aside, I don't really have a philosophical problem with a new trail being built that's all groomed out. Or the idea that an existing singletrack could be changed to make it into one...........if that existing singltrack kind of sucked. My real life experience tells me however that most of the people doing this have no idea what they're doing. So the end product does in fact end up pretty bad, and that bothers me way worse.

I also don't hold the notion that all flow trails are by design to make something easier. I could show you some lines on a few such trails around here that you'd never even try. They're terrifying. But just like a ball of roots or an extended boulder field, a good layout leaves options to explore. That's where the fun comes, whether it's manmade or not. I do agree that the worst of the ilk tends to be a corridor that's been completely laid to waste of any and all options but one bucky little table top that just gets in the way. There's gotta be some room for interpretation no matter what the layout.

I think the biggest strike against flow trails in the woods vs. natural ones is maintenance. A well routed piece of singletrack is self sustaining. Big piles of sifted dirt never will be.

[creaky fossil]

I'm sure there are "flow trails" that would make me say no, and not just because they look boring. For example, the BMX Supercross track in Earthed 2.

I'm more interested in the aspects nobody wants to see or discuss. Should MTB trails be built from a civil engineer/roadbuilder mindset? Why? If you can argue it convincingly, then where is that trail type appropriate?

What's the point of a trail? Should a trail be designed to make someone feel "included" or "not intimidated"? Why?

If MTBs arose in this way: balloonie on fire road --> bikes slowly tweaked for 20+ years to deal with hiking trail technicalities

then why are we now saying trails should accommodate MTB riders, rather than vice-versa?

I agree -- I don't see any strong argument in favor of industrial trail construction when you consider maintenance of those sculpted rollers berms tabletops, the obvious solution to a civil engineer is PAVE IT and that's the direction things are heading now.

[Anospa]

I'm a civil, just make everything a mandatory double and you're golden. Berms won't get smashed because Fred will be too scared to ride the trail. No brake drag = not nearly as much maintenance.

[kidwoo]

I agree -- I don't see any strong argument in favor of industrial trail construction when you consider maintenance of those sculpted rollers berms tabletops, the obvious solution to a civil engineer is PAVE IT and that's the direction things are heading now.

And for me personally, I really don't either. My favorite local trails are the exact opposite of that. They're still open and wide but rough as hell if you don't hit the right lines. But I'm a little different in that when I want to ride crazy smooth stuff really fast with big jumps I just build this stuff.

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...86#post1800686

For people who don't do that, I guess I can kinda sorta maybe see the appeal of doing neutered versions for trail bikes. I'm not going to put any time into it though. Banging on rocks is too fun. And it does seem to be a diminishing art.

I'm a civil, just make everything a mandatory double and you're golden. Berms won't get smashed because Fred will be too scared to ride the trail. No brake drag = not nearly as much maintenance.

For sure.
Then you end up with skidded up lips half the time......at least in dry locales. Although I was pretty impressed with what the Teton Bridger allows in Jackson. I think public agencies underestimate people's desire for self preservation a little too much. That stuff seems to be existing just fine with doubles all over the place.

[shirk]

Flow trails are fun. Sure some suck but that doesn't diminish them all.

Tech trails are fun. Sure some suck but that's mean it all needs to be paved over.

Variety in a local trail system is what is needed.

The argument shouldn't be binary.

Personally I like that I don't need to drive to Squamish/Whistler/the Valley any more if I feel like some flow, I can hit one of the two trails on the Shore that now have flow. I can still get my old school on when needed, I can go all mountaineering, I can go XC, or I can DH. Now if only someday we could get the local alpine opened up...they we'd have everything right in the backyard.

[creaky fossil]

my thing about flow trails is that they make me want to bring a 20" to the trailhead, nothing wrong with that kind of sculpted easy fun if pondering in a vacuum, but on the landscape of MTB design evolution with bikes way more capable, why are trails moving in the opposite direction?

have geometry and suspension refinements been done only to have them negated by trails removing their need?

trail builders can make fully natural trails that provide a feeling of "flow" without making a drainage/landscape look like it was reshaped by the same guys who clearcut for Maxxam, it's this point that everyone seems to ignore because they're afraid of the "elitist!" epithet. why are trails now expected to handle issues related strictly to human psychology and ego security?

if a trail makes a puffed-up dude feel emasculated, or a would-be adventurous woman feel intimidated, why is that not something put on the shoulders of the rider him/herself where needs accommodation (i.e., "need to do something about" that emasculation/intimidation) is concerned?

[stuckathuntermtn]

Anyone know what they're building/built out in Alberton?

[kidwoo]

on the landscape of MTB design evolution with bikes way more capable, why are trails moving in the opposite direction?

"all are not?"


Are you losing trails in MT to this kind of thing, or are you just looking for the philosophical discussion? Serious question.

I get a little bummed looking at all the time, money and effort that goes into building a lot of this stuff because I think it could be better used. But it's not my time, money or effort to dictate how it's utilized. As long as these trails aren't displacing existing awesomeness, it's kind of hard to have a leg to stand on. It's obviously what some people want. I don't think driving around in parking lots yelling 'quit asking for this, you just suck at bike riding' is really that productive a pursuit

I guess I'm asking in all earnest: what is this really costing you? I don't know, I don't live in where you do. This movement isn't displacing 'natural' trails here.

[::: :::]

He's not doing anything in that video that's outside what most people consider normal mountain biking, but the bike makes it look more difficult.

you mean, if "normal mountain biking" involved pro level handling?
i think you've forgotten how long it takes to get to an advanced level and what that looks like...
the vid looked like someone with significant skills to me
throw me on that line and the vid would be three times as long and pretty ugly to watch

[kidwoo]

you mean, if "normal mountain biking" involved pro level handling?
i think you've forgotten how long it takes to get to an advanced level and what that looks like...
the vid looked like someone with significant skills to me
throw me on that line and the vid would be three times as long and pretty ugly to watch

You misunderstand me. I said that in reference to a question about trails being made to suit the bike. In that respect what he was doing looked like what's been known as mountain biking for a few decades now. But doing it on that bike made a competent rider look way more forced than if he were on something with less length, smaller wheels, and narrower bars. It was a comment on the BIKE, and what the 'industry' is now telling everyone they need.

The result of which looked like shit, even under someone who knows how to move it.

[::: :::]

if a trail makes a puffed-up dude feel emasculated, or a would-be adventurous woman feel intimidated, why is that not something put on the shoulders of the rider him/herself where needs accommodation (i.e., "need to do something about" that emasculation/intimidation) is concerned?

are advanced trails not marked as such?

[creaky fossil]

"all are not?"

This is good to hear, but vicarious enjoyment never measures up to the real experience.

Are you losing trails in MT to this kind of thing, or are you just looking for the philosophical discussion? Serious question.

Well the things I've built as solo projects are or have been immune, but that wouldn't be what I'm talking about.

The modifications to our official trails, and the few new trails, or new parts of trails, that have been built here in the past decade have been flow-aiming, if not flow-executed. There's also the flow-ified rider's casual re-route of awkward spots, which I'm guessing is done based on a viewpoint formed by "flow" video footage seen in the rider's travels.

The philosophical discussion would be good though, because what I've seen 'round the toobz is that you can't have one (thus far, elsewhere) without shills doing their thirsty/hungry vulture swoop-down.

are advanced trails not marked as such?

My experience is that most trails in most locales are not so marked. I'm not sure I've ridden anywhere the trails were overtly signed by difficulty. There was a time when I thought such signing was or would be essential, but now I think it's short-sighted in some respects.

Anyone know what they're building/built out in Alberton?

10 years ago, yes. Now? Would wonder what you're talking about. Would wonder whether it's smart to talk about it here.

[WaistDeepGroomers]

I would say the extent to which some builders are really inclined to make a dirt skatepark pump track going through untamed woods is kind of bizarre to me, but then again, I don't think I've ever cackled as much as when I rode Half Nelson in Squamish. As far as pure fun goes, to me the best trails are the ones where the speed and rhythm is always changing. Phillips Canyon around here is a great example of that, and as far as I know was just a horse trail before. But good pucker-inducing sections of chunder where you're riding slower and picking your lines, and then you exit with speed into a flow-ier bit and get off the brakes as you pump the corners and build up speed on the smoother bits. Then wham, hit a corner and you're blindsided by a tech section you've taken with too much speed and have to figure it out. Hard to avoid feeling "in the moment" the whole way down.

I would think once the flow trail concept goes overboard, it'll naturally recede to a point where it's being built in where it makes sense vs. the entire trail top to bottom. As someone mentioned earlier, it feels weird ripping around those kinds of trails with all this advanced suspension/geo/tires and feel like you could be on a BMX bike instead. That's certainly what the JHMR bike park feels like, although it's a stellar place to practice jumps and corners.

[creaky fossil]

I get a little bummed looking at all the time, money and effort that goes into building a lot of this stuff because I think it could be better used. But it's not my time, money or effort to dictate how it's utilized. As long as these trails aren't displacing existing awesomeness, it's kind of hard to have a leg to stand on. It's obviously what some people want. I don't think driving around in parking lots yelling 'quit asking for this, you just suck at bike riding' is really that productive a pursuit

I don't know, I always change my view when someone's "rationale" consists of telling me how inferior and subhuman I am. I think it's because I lack a spine and need others to tell me what/who/how I am.

Besides, I don't think I have enough $$ for the gasoline required to drive to all those trailheads, and then I'd be there only to Preach at the Heathens with Fire and Brimstone, and I'd never get to ride the bike. I'd get a sore throat, laryngitis, nodes on the larynx.

"Displacing existing awesomeness" would apply in this fine locale, but "awesome" obviously is subjective and as you said, the flow-brown-sidewalk is obviously what a lot of people want and what they'd consider "awesome" so they'd say that "awesome" is displacing stupid elitist difficulty.

[butterscotch]

Creaky, I thought you didn't believe in roost?

[creaky fossil]

how can you say that? I spent my teen years roosting all over several states on two different MX bikes. I even roosted a bit in my early 20s.

forgive me if that just destroyed your personal iconography related to my internet brand.

my pony from ages 13-19:



my pony from 21-24:

[JerseyDave]

It is. But he does kind of look like a spaz riding a bike that's too big.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of 'flow trails', it's just that they're usually done so poorly and have zero actual flow to them.
And it's getting a little maddening that any bike-centric trail now has that format as the default scenario.

You have to be pretty dead inside to not enjoy mobbing down dirt merchant with a bunch of friends with room to cut each other's lines. But a world with nothing but dirt merchant trails would be a pretty boring one. There's room for it all.

This is the ever loving truth. Of the new flow trail in Stowe, I find it disappointing on a personal level. What we have seen is a piece of land that was the home to a bunch of illegal trail turned legal via a land trust purchase. The new trail, Flo(w), was the one trail on the plan set aside to be an expert trail. The rest of the network has already seen a lot be easy trail built. As a trail builder in the area I was really excited to finally get green-lighted to build out an expert trail. Not a job I was on, but still excited at the possibility of a true expert trail, there has yet to be one built in a public park in the North Central Vt area. Instead, we get Flo. It is a beautiful build. It is so far from an expert trail the damn thing is over run by 8 year olds and I like to call it Second Base. Fun the first time.....gets boring real quick...and if you try and push for a little more, you find yourself in trouble. Over jumping into uphill landings or landing deep in turns. I find it....unfortunate. But, someone wanted to build a flow trail, so that's what we got instead of some expert riding. Florence, a trail that makes everyone feel like an expert. Yawn. Rode it twice, prolly never again. Wish we got to build it. I hit everything blind with no helmet the first time through....yut, there's yur problem.

[LeeLau]

I would say the extent to which some builders are really inclined to make a dirt skatepark pump track going through untamed woods is kind of bizarre to me, but then again, I don't think I've ever cackled as much as when I rode Half Nelson in Squamish. As far as pure fun goes, to me the best trails are the ones where the speed and rhythm is always changing.

What a cool thread. Actually some good food for thought here.

Half Nelson, to me, epitomizes a flow trail with creativity. You can ride it slow and have fun. You can ride it fast and still have fun. There are optional lines all over the place. Eg Root balls to double, little takeoffs on small rock features, playful little inside outside berms. As shirk will know imo Penny/Martin's rework of the Severed Dick is really fun in the same vein. Lots of room to move around and try little micro sniper lines. Ewan's portion of the High School Route is also fantastic. PoDo's rework of Floppy Bunny too.

Then there are flow trails which are just flat, straightaways with the odd grade reversal tabletops (what woo alluded too) then a beautifully contoured manicured switchback then another flat straightaway. Fun I guess but featureless and bland

It's trails like HN which inspire me to do creative trailwork

[kidwoo]

Then there are flow trails which are just flat, straightaways with the odd grade reversal tabletops (what woo alluded too) then a beautifully contoured manicured switchback then another flat straightaway. Fun I guess but featureless and bland

If I hated you, I would tell you that you HAVE to go ride mt bachelor next time you drive by.





But it sounds like you already have

[TahoeJ]

are advanced trails not marked as such?

They mark trails based on difficulty?

I'm kidding, of course, but it's funny to me since literally everywhere I ride doesn't have any kind of signage like this whatsoever.