but there's no flow to that trail

[thewon]

They mark trails based on difficulty?

I'm kidding, of course, but it's funny to me since literally everywhere I ride doesn't have any kind of signage like this whatsoever.

X2

.........

[gramboh]

What a cool thread. Actually some good food for thought here.

Half Nelson, to me, epitomizes a flow trail with creativity. You can ride it slow and have fun. You can ride it fast and still have fun. There are optional lines all over the place. Eg Root balls to double, little takeoffs on small rock features, playful little inside outside berms. As shirk will know imo Penny/Martin's rework of the Severed Dick is really fun in the same vein. Lots of room to move around and try little micro sniper lines. Ewan's portion of the High School Route is also fantastic. PoDo's rework of Floppy Bunny too.

Then there are flow trails which are just flat, straightaways with the odd grade reversal tabletops (what woo alluded too) then a beautifully contoured manicured switchback then another flat straightaway. Fun I guess but featureless and bland

It's trails like HN which inspire me to do creative trailwork

I love HN. It was the first trail I rode in Squamish and every time I go out I can try something new on it. I can also take friends who are even more newbie than me and they can get down comfortably while having a blast. This vid shows some of the doubles, transfers and options on Half Nelson by a pro: http://www.pinkbike.com/news/sid-slo...ideo-2014.html

We are really lucky in this region, hope I never have to move away .

[Anospa]

I get a little bummed looking at all the time, money and effort that goes into building a lot of this stuff because I think it could be better used. But it's not my time, money or effort to dictate how it's utilized. As long as these trails aren't displacing existing awesomeness, it's kind of hard to have a leg to stand on. It's obviously what some people want. I don't think driving around in parking lots yelling 'quit asking for this, you just suck at bike riding' is really that productive a pursuit .

This project really annoyed me when it went in:


Dunno why having a trail that goes through the wetland is needed, but its easily 500 feet long and required a lane shutdown on a major highway for the wood to be delivered. Granted its cool to see such a big project come together, but I still don't see a trail in this spot being necessary. The idea was to shutdown another trail that skirts the wetland (and its super off camber roots, so too techy for the majority of riders who ride this place) and replace it with this boardwalk. The other trail is still open, and this project took a lot of money. Its good to have something to point at when people ask what the local chapter money is used for, but there are better things to build (or in this case, not build) than a huge boardwalk.

[creaky fossil]

for people who have concerns about trails you may ride that some rookie might not be happy on --

how do you handle a ski day? do you only ski runs that don't intimidate the rookies you know?

I'm reminded again of that mathematics analogy. if someone can't handle calculus, do we redefine "calculus" as something which it's actually not?

[epic]

I'm a civil, just make everything a mandatory double and you're golden. Berms won't get smashed because Fred will be too scared to ride the trail. No brake drag = not nearly as much maintenance.

My town briefly had a dirt jump park. The idea was to make everything doubles, no tabletops so the lips wouldn't get ruined by Freds rolling over them. Well, it turns out that the three guys who actually could ride this park were not interested in maintaining it. It is now partly plowed under/partly covered in weeds. But it was successful in keeping the unskilled riders from wrecking the lips.

[epic]

This is the ever loving truth. Of the new flow trail in Stowe, I find it disappointing on a personal level. What we have seen is a piece of land that was the home to a bunch of illegal trail turned legal via a land trust purchase. The new trail, Flo(w), was the one trail on the plan set aside to be an expert trail. The rest of the network has already seen a lot be easy trail built. As a trail builder in the area I was really excited to finally get green-lighted to build out an expert trail. Not a job I was on, but still excited at the possibility of a true expert trail, there has yet to be one built in a public park in the North Central Vt area. Instead, we get Flo. It is a beautiful build. It is so far from an expert trail the damn thing is over run by 8 year olds and I like to call it Second Base. Fun the first time.....gets boring real quick...and if you try and push for a little more, you find yourself in trouble. Over jumping into uphill landings or landing deep in turns. I find it....unfortunate. But, someone wanted to build a flow trail, so that's what we got instead of some expert riding. Florence, a trail that makes everyone feel like an expert. Yawn. Rode it twice, prolly never again. Wish we got to build it. I hit everything blind with no helmet the first time through....yut, there's yur problem.

[Catch22]

What a cool thread. Actually some good food for thought here.

Half Nelson, to me, epitomizes a flow trail with creativity. You can ride it slow and have fun. You can ride it fast and still have fun. There are optional lines all over the place. Eg Root balls to double, little takeoffs on small rock features, playful little inside outside berms. As shirk will know imo Penny/Martin's rework of the Severed Dick is really fun in the same vein. Lots of room to move around and try little micro sniper lines. Ewan's portion of the High School Route is also fantastic. PoDo's rework of Floppy Bunny too.

Then there are flow trails which are just flat, straightaways with the odd grade reversal tabletops (what woo alluded too) then a beautifully contoured manicured switchback then another flat straightaway. Fun I guess but featureless and bland

It's trails like HN which inspire me to do creative trailwork

I was hoping you would make it over to this thread Lee. I wanted to get your thoughts on the original video posted, especially after the nice discussion regarding that photo on your FB page the other day. The photo bothered me because it seems obviously staged and really seemed to glorify grabbing a handful of rear brake and blowing up a berm. I thought this video was just fine. Good solid cornering and I suspect that most if not all of the loam coming off at the corners was due to throwing a bike into a corner so hard that a little bit of duff is going to fly when conditions are so over the top loose. Hell, I don't even know if he touched the brakes the entire time. Some people are just as offended by the video as I was over the photo but I just don't see it on this one. I also have very little "loam" experience so maybe I'm just missing something?

[grskier]

I like both roast beef and italian sandwiches.

See how easy that is.

I like both Valhalla (a flow trail) and palisade rim (decidedly not a flow trail)


Do I need to go register myself now or something :0

[Anospa]

My town briefly had a dirt jump park. The idea was to make everything doubles, no tabletops so the lips wouldn't get ruined by Freds rolling over them. Well, it turns out that the three guys who actually could ride this park were not interested in maintaining it. It is now partly plowed under/partly covered in weeds. But it was successful in keeping the unskilled riders from wrecking the lips.

DJs are different than features out in the woods. They're gonna require a ton of maintenance no matter what, but they are also the main line.

DJs are in one spot and if its public you want easy stuff to get people into it.

[creaky fossil]

I was hoping you would make it over to this thread Lee. I wanted to get your thoughts on the original video posted, especially after the nice discussion regarding that photo on your FB page the other day. The photo bothered me because it seems obviously staged and really seemed to glorify grabbing a handful of rear brake and blowing up a berm. I thought this video was just fine. Good solid cornering and I suspect that most if not all of the loam coming off at the corners was due to throwing a bike into a corner so hard that a little bit of duff is going to fly when conditions are so over the top loose. Hell, I don't even know if he touched the brakes the entire time. Some people are just as offended by the video as I was over the photo but I just don't see it on this one. I also have very little "loam" experience so maybe I'm just missing something?

duffy shit that piles up into a berm-looking thing, that's not a berm, so Barnes isn't destroying berms. in a tidy, IMBA construction you'd take that berm-looking pile of duffy shit and cast it inconspicuously around the buffer zone (adjacent to where you're cutting), because that makes it look more like Augusta National during Masters Week.

the video says freshly cut trail, there are all kinds of ways to cut a trail, from the miminal coarsely worked line that gets ridden in, to the industrial full sculpture technique. one of the ways you can work in a corner is intentionally scour the top shit to reach the mineral soil below, and you can do that scouring with kiddie skids while descending or with a moto climbing the trail

of course that's not how IMBA would make the trail

also I continue to be puzzled by TGR, home of the badass skier online, where everyone hates groomers and groomer skis. when outside that realm of skiing, everything should be Lowest Common Denominator. groomers good.

[hick]

Good thread for sure. Wrestle with these questions of bullshit flow vs necessary and functional flow every day all summer. It is hard to build a sustainable multi-use trail that will still be fun on a bike. A major project we worked on the last 2 seasons on the CDT could have been made a lot more fun and still functional with the use of a lot less powder (explosives) and over digging to please the Forest Service COR who could give two shits about how a trail rides. It's difficult when you don't want to squander the opportunity to make 11 miles of legal trail into something that will be functional in getting from point a to point b, but still ride well and please most people at the same time.

[Peruvian]

I'm with buttah and straw, that trail won't be worth a damn in a year if it gets ridden like that.

[thewon]

Totally.

[creaky fossil]

I'm with buttah and straw, that trail won't be worth a damn in a year if it gets ridden like that.

how does any of you know what it will look like in a year? you know who rides there, how many riders, how often, and how they ride?

the internet is wondrous, it lets you see things meatspace disallows!

[forty]

some good words in here, also sounds like ramblings inside my head half the time, heres a few of my pennies worth of opinions

for me, the real issue comes down to who holds the shovels

current mtb culture has shifted away from dig to ride, and into fundraise to pay someone to dig to ride
the sticking point is those who are getting paid to dig rarely ride, and dont have a clue how to build something that rides well
this leads to consultation, which leads to imba and standardized practices, so they build engineered like trail with simple contours and shapes manhandled into the terrain, because thats what they know, and thats what they are familiar with, and that is them trying their best to cater to mtb riders

lame mtb trail comes from lame mtb trail builders, end of discussion
but expectations for non mtb riders to build rad trail is silly

i dont have an immediate solution, outside of mtb riders picking up a shovel themselves instead of sending blank checks to imba...
but i do have hope

in another 5-10 years we will have a ton of these "flow" trails all over the place that will be in dire need of work, the advocacy and heavy lifting is already done, all that is needed is a local core crew of riders to give a shit

i actually look forward to when these machine made trails are overgrown messes and can get back into them for reworking into some really cool trails, lots of potential for the future imo

but im a glass half full kinda guy

[LeeLau]

I thought this video was just fine. Good solid cornering and I suspect that most if not all of the loam coming off at the corners was due to throwing a bike into a corner so hard that a little bit of duff is going to fly when conditions are so over the top loose. Hell, I don't even know if he touched the brakes the entire time. Some people are just as offended by the video as I was over the photo but I just don't see it on this one. I also have very little "loam" experience so maybe I'm just missing something?

It was good riding. The Coastal Crew do rake and rides all the time. I'd be lying to say it didn't look like good times.

[QUOTE=creaky fossil;4355451the video says freshly cut trail, there are all kinds of ways to cut a trail, from the miminal coarsely worked line that gets ridden in, to the industrial full sculpture technique. one of the ways you can work in a corner is intentionally scour the top shit to reach the mineral soil below, and you can do that scouring with kiddie skids while descending or with a moto climbing the trail.[/QUOTE]

Yup this is probably someone who did a rake and ride.

I'm with buttah and straw, that trail won't be worth a damn in a year if it gets ridden like that.

Agreed with you buttah, straw. Give it a few months and its done and if its the way they cut new trail in Fort Bill then that's great.

What i don't get is the PB brown pow obsession which imo glorifies gratuitious skids. Looks like PB is split 50/50 either way on it..

[creaky fossil]

...and please most people at the same time.

there's your problem right there

why does an untutored utter novice have a say in what the Earth should deliver, terrain wise, for his/her first experience? it would be like teaching baseball to someone by rewriting the game. when the novice has mastered the rewritten stupidified game-ish thing, he/she has to relearn the real baseball now. how is that good?

USFS doesn't always do multi-user as "please everyone," there's plenty of examples of trails being cut solely to please lazy horse riders, and tons of examples near me of trails being almost-paved in their rock/root/rut removal to make rookie horse riders less spooked. they're also hamstrung by their trail design's corner (switchback) approach, which despite the between-turns design (please the timid rookie horse rider) take a anaerobic-junkie-hiker's approach to turning (as near 180 as possible, like a kickturn when skinning uphill).

[LeeLau]

how does any of you know what it will look like in a year? you know who rides there, how many riders, how often, and how they ride?

the internet is wondrous, it lets you see things meatspace disallows!

Kind of an educated guess. Fort William is a pretty busy place. Hard to keep anything Generation 1 there. The guy who rode this is probably Gen 2. Soon there will be lots of Generation 3s. Lots of people will ride this and they will ride it in all conditions.

Sorry for the obscure use of jargon but the first few paras by RC is pretty good - http://www.pinkbike.com/news/opinion...ikes-2014.html

[BushwackerinPA]

there's your problem right there

it would be like teaching baseball to someone by rewriting the game.

so where in the writting of the supposed rules of MTBing is there an article against flow trails.

[creaky fossil]

What i don't get is the PB brown pow obsession which imo glorifies gratuitious skids. Looks like PB is split 50/50 either way on it..

Photo and video have been glorifying brown pow spray for about 5 years now. What impresses the camera jock (ooh caught them particles cletus, they's suspended in ayuh!), the camera jock assumes is what riders should want to do. Else why glorify the pow, photo jock?

so where in the writting of the supposed rules of MTBing is there an article against flow trails.

dude talk like an adult and I'll answer you seriously, stop thinking you're such a clever boy

Kind of an educated guess. Fort William is a pretty busy place. Hard to keep anything Generation 1 there. The guy who rode this is probably Gen 2. Soon there will be lots of Generation 3s. Lots of people will ride this and they will ride it in all conditions.

the Barnes video trail is within the boundaries of the Ft Wm bike park? or is that a rough reference pt, like I might say I grew up in DC even though I grew up in MD suburbs?

[thewon]

Raking leaves. Don't do it. Rode my shit with leaves down after a bunch of wet and freeze/thaw. No mud. Rode a leaf blown area with the same soil after the same weather and it was slick as snot with baby poo mud.

[LeeLau]

Creaky

Check this out

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/how-to-...hoto-2014.html was on front page then got pulled - mostly negative

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/weather...llas-2014.html - same douchetard - mostly positive

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Fabien-...osky-2013.html - half and half lots of Canuck whining

http://www.pinkbike.com/u/pinkbikeau...e-with-me.html - half and half

http://instagram.com/p/vW78WrPtu2/ - half and half

Lots of don't be the fun police comments but lots of negative feedback too not just from people working on trails but also from riders.

Rake and ride video is here btw http://www.pinkbike.com/news/rake-an...ideo-2014.html

[Peruvian]

how does any of you know what it will look like in a year? you know who rides there, how many riders, how often, and how they ride?

the internet is wondrous, it lets you see things meatspace disallows!

Ft William, Scotland. It says they are "backyard" trails so they probably don't get a lot of traffic. I know joe Barnes rides there.

they sure look like they are prime for weather erosion. You can see roots being exposed and nary a water bar or any other drainage. I don't have to be the Amazing Kreskin to figure out that if they keep getting ridden like that, with no maintenance, than they will be shot.

[LeeLau]

the Barnes video trail is within the boundaries of the Ft Wm bike park? or is that a rough reference pt, like I might say I grew up in DC even though I grew up in MD suburbs?

I don't know. So you could be right that it will stay relatively secret. But so many good riders go to Ft William area that any trail like that won't stay quiet for long. They get 50k of visitors a year to the bike park and "surrounding areas" - source was a Tourism Scotland study

[creaky fossil]

as with most of the (-) boolshyte happening in mtb these days, "journalists" can boast about their "growing the sport" while ignoring what that "growing" has done. glorifying the pow, that's been a "stoke" vehicle to "grow the sport". and as always, nobody gives a fuck about what's destroyed when "growth" is happening. it's genius, I tell you.

I don't know how to take PB comments, most people who talk on the internet are posting to promote/confirm a self-image, there's little soul-baring honesty at work, it could just be a fad to "hate on" the brown pow/posed/faked/duped image. a year from now it might be popular/faddish/tweet-tastic to ride two abreast everywhere, requiring 10 foot wide trailbeds.