27.5" AM/Enduro frames

[JeffreyJim]

Yea, those things are horrible. Ask anyone.

For those saying short travel 29ers, all I can say is, what courses are you racing?
I can't imagine a 120mm 29er being a decent option on any enduro course I've been on.

I don't want to be a dick but...

http://www.vitalmtb.com/news/news/Ky...o-Snowmass,778

Kyle won on a 100mm bike...He also won the overall NAET...

To add, http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/20...nson-2013.html

There is your Bronson's numbers. And yes, for a racer, they sorta suck. For a dude noodling around its fine. Are there worse bikes? Sure. But as an "aggresive rider's" enduro bike there are much (much) better options when it comes to how a bike's suspension works when pushed hard...

[kidwoo]

To add, http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/20...nson-2013.html

There is your Bronson's numbers.

I can think a few worse ones.

[hick]

I don't want to be a dick but...

http://www.vitalmtb.com/news/news/Ky...o-Snowmass,778

Kyle won on a 100mm bike...He also won the overall NAET...

To add, http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/20...nson-2013.html

There is your Bronson's numbers. And yes, for a racer, they sorta suck. For a dude noodling around its fine. Are there worse bikes? Sure. But as an "aggresive rider's" enduro bike there are much (much) better options when it comes to how a bike's suspension works when pushed hard...

Thank god for those graphs, I couldn't figure out why that bike sucks so bad. It's so obvious when I look at the graphs.

[JeffreyJim]

Thank god for those graphs, I couldn't figure out why that bike sucks so bad. It's so obvious when I look at the graphs.

In the words of McLovin "dude read a book sometime".

Seriously, they aren't that hard to understand. Leverage ratio curve is regressive through perhaps the most important part of the travel (the middle). That alone is why I wouldn't suggest anyone look at this bike who actually is into the best/most effective enduro race tool. There are simply better options. From SC I'd lean toward a 5150 or a Nomad. Both of which ride far better in my experience (and yes, the numbers back this anecdotal experience up.)

And yes Woo - there are a number of far worse designs. Though perhaps not at that price point from the Holier than thou Santa Cruz... #justsayin

[kidwoo]

And yes Woo - there are a number of far worse designs. Though perhaps not at that price point from the Holier than thou Santa Cruz... #justsayin

#justsayin

http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/20...650b-2015.html

[jm2e]

Jared Graves won on a Yeti. Against the big boys. Does that mean Yeti has the best Enduro linkage? But only for European trails?

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Damn. Graphs and shit? You guys are not fucking around.

I rode two nights ago and gave it alot of thought as I was struggling at times to keep the damn wheels on the ground through the turns. Felt like I had a basket ball mounted up front instead of a fork. Looks like I am gonna get on a Knolly Warden X01 build. Its time to try something different. Fantastic front and rear shocks with a lower BB and I should be quite happy in the turns. I'm fucking stoked.

[creaky fossil]

Thank god for those graphs, I couldn't figure out why that bike sucks so bad. It's so obvious when I look at the graphs.

I'm with you, I won't ride any bike whose graph looks like this. also it has to have 650B, no other wheel size really works, 26 is too slow and 29 is too bulky.

Jared Graves won on a Yeti. Against the big boys. Does that mean Yeti has the best Enduro linkage? But only for European trails?

dude.

Yetis WIN, dude.

they win speed traps.

[jm2e]

I'm pretty sure Graves would win on whatever bike he rides. The guy is a samurai warrior.

[jm2e]

Looks like I am gonna get on a Knolly Warden X01 build. Its time to try something different.

FKNA! That'll make at least two Knollys in the Southeast. We shall overcome!

[Roxtar]

I don't want to be a dick but...

http://www.vitalmtb.com/news/news/Ky...o-Snowmass,778

Kyle won on a 100mm bike...He also won the overall NAET...

To add, http://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/20...nson-2013.html

There is your Bronson's numbers. And yes, for a racer, they sorta suck. For a dude noodling around its fine. Are there worse bikes? Sure. But as an "aggresive rider's" enduro bike there are much (much) better options when it comes to how a bike's suspension works when pushed hard...

If I'm deciphering that right, those graphs are mostly showing AS numbers based on the 32/15 drivetrain. If we were talking XC racing, those numbers might mean something. For a race that is primarily downhill they mean, well, squat. First of all, if you're in this gear (unless you're Kyle, perhaps) you're most likely not in serious pedal pushing mode; AS fails to be an issue. Second, and more importantly, As you go deeper in the travel, both AS and AR plummet. IOW, the pedaling forces get removed from the suspension forces (negative AS & AR). That's a good thing for descending. I don't want my pedaling to effect the suspension when I'm deep in the travel, ie, big hits. Finally, enduro isn't won on the climbs, especially here in America where half the races are lift assisted.

Oh, and Kyle could have won on a tricycle with a flat front tire. That doesn't make it the weapon of choice for mortals on a typical rocky, DHish, enduro course.

[JeffreyJim]

If I'm deciphering that right, those graphs are mostly showing AS numbers based on the 32/15 drivetrain. If we were talking XC racing, those numbers might mean something. For a race that is primarily downhill they mean, well, squat. First of all, if you're in this gear (unless you're Kyle, perhaps) you're most likely not in serious pedal pushing mode; AS fails to be an issue. Second, and more importantly, As you go deeper in the travel the AS plummets. IOW, the suspension doesn't stiffen as you pedal, it actually loosens up (negative AS). That's a good thing for descending. I don't want my pedaling to cause the suspension to tighten when I'm deep in the travel, ie, big hits. Finally, enduro isn't won on the climbs, especially here in America where half the races are lift assisted.

Oh, and Kyle could have won on a tricycle with a flat front tire. That doesn't make it the weapon of choice for mortals on a typical rocky, DHish, enduro course.

Disagree.

32/15 drivetrain is gear I'll often find myself in (if I'm running a 32...usually I'm running a 34) when racing. Second, enduro is won by being efficient. That means carrying speed and yes, pedaling hard where it counts. Woo did win the internet with the graph of the nomad - really thought the curve was a lot better having ridden both...it felt like it had a lot more mid stroke support. Probably shock tune? Either way - good to know.

I ride a Sanction Pro now, its great, but its not the choice bike for NA racing. It isn't nearly as snappy under acceleration and simply too much bike for most courses...

If you look to the podium at most any enduro race in the Western US its commonly won by dudes riding 120-140mm bikes. Not 160mm brawlers...(Hills, Joey, Bradford, Hauer etc)

[creaky fossil]

I'm pretty sure Graves would win on whatever bike he rides. The guy is a samurai warrior.

something like when Bobby Jones saw Jack Nicklaus play golf, Jones was one of the greatest golfers of his era and well-respected, and he said of Nicklaus, "he plays a game with which I am unfamiliar."

[kidwoo]

the graph of the nomad - really thought the curve was a lot better having ridden both...it felt like it had a lot more mid stroke support. Probably shock tune?

Really? The swentz loaned me his nomad frame for a month long roadtrip. I got to put all my own stuff on it, literally building the bike I would own if I bought one. That thing had ZERO midstroke support with a monarch debonair on it.

I ended up running it with about 25 psi higher than 'recommended' and the shock constantly in middle/trail compression damping. I pedaled and descended that thing all over the PNW and Tahoe. Me no likey. It wasn't horrible but also couldn't pump for shit unless it was overdamped.

What shock did you try on it?

[JeffreyJim]

Really? The swentz loaned me his nomad frame for a month long roadtrip. I got to put all my own stuff on it, literally building the bike I would own if I bought one. That thing had ZERO midstroke support with a monarch debonair on it.

I ended up running it with about 25 psi higher than 'recommended' and the shock constantly in middle/trail compression damping. I pedaled and descended that thing all over the PNW and Tahoe. Me no likey. It wasn't horrible but also couldn't pump for shit unless it was overdamped.

What shock did you try on it?

Vivid Air. Custom for the bike from buds at SRAM...

It didn't feel mega supportive, just nothing like the Bronson - which was as you described the Nomad...

J

[JeffreyJim]

something like when Bobby Jones saw Jack Nicklaus play golf, Jones was one of the greatest golfers of his era and well-respected, and he said of Nicklaus, "he plays a game with which I am unfamiliar."

I think this of Nico...

[kidwoo]

^You spelled sam hill incorrectly.

[Roxtar]

Disagree.

32/15 drivetrain is gear I'll often find myself in (if I'm running a 32...usually I'm running a 34) when racing. Second, enduro is won by being efficient. That means carrying speed and yes, pedaling hard where it counts.

I'm not saying you don't use that gear, just that it isn't your typical gear for climbing or accelerating (unless you're a far better man than I). If you're in that gear you probably are carrying speed (Yes, you're peddling hard but are working with momentum). At that point bump sensitivity outweighs pedaling efficiency and AS and AR are of very little consequence.

Enduro is won by consistently going faster down the hill than everyone else.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Now my next question is frame sizing on the warden. I am about 5'6.5" which is basically between small and medium on the knolly frame size recommendations.

[grinch]

your inbetween sizes like myself. I'd go med and take the opportunity to shorten the stem. I put a 30mm syntace stem on and really like it. more control on the down and controls any wheel flop climbing with new slacker head angles. more companies making low 30mm stems now. answer , renthal and syntace atleast . 32, 31 , 30 respectively I think

[JeffreyJim]

I'm not saying you don't use that gear, just that it isn't your typical gear for climbing or accelerating (unless you're a far better man than I). If you're in that gear you probably are carrying speed (Yes, you're peddling hard but are working with momentum). At that point bump sensitivity outweighs pedaling efficiency and AS and AR are of very little consequence.

Enduro is won by consistently going faster down the hill than everyone else.

Eh, I find myself pedaling out of more corners than I should in this gear ratio (ish).

[creaky fossil]

I'm not saying you don't use that gear, just that it isn't your typical gear for climbing or accelerating (unless you're a far better man than I).

paging Mr Shoelaces, Mr Tyrone Shoelaces to the white courtesty phone please

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

your inbetween sizes like myself. I'd go med and take the opportunity to shorten the stem. I put a 30mm syntace stem on and really like it. more control on the down and controls any wheel flop climbing with new slacker head angles. more companies making low 30mm stems now. answer , renthal and syntace atleast . 32, 31 , 30 respectively I think

That was my initial thought as well. I think I would feel too cramped on a small frame.

[jm2e]

Now my next question is frame sizing on the warden. I am about 5'6.5" which is basically between small and medium on the knolly frame size recommendations.

I'm 5' 10" and have long arms. In rock climber speak, I have a +2 Ape-Index. In other words, my wingspan is 6 feet, or 2" longer than my height.
According to Knolly, I'm right on the fence and leaning toward a medium. I internet asked a bunch of people and got answers on both ends of the spectrum. Noel Buckley said he thought I should be on a medium. In the end, I went with a large Chilcotin anyway because; 1) I found a sweet deal on a used one on Pinkbike, and 2) I'm tired of years of feeling like my size medium bikes were too small and required me to shove the saddle back and use a long stem.
I built it up with a 60mm stem which worked great. Then I got a Kore 35mm stem for like $60 bucks and it was like night and day. Fucking awesome. Everything about the bike felt different. And by different, I mean better.
One thing I feel happens with really slack Knolly seat tube is that for a taller rider the reach gets noticeably longer, and for a shorter rider the reach gets noticeably shorter. Seems to add a good deal of frame size overlap and flexibility. When my 6' buddy got on the bike, he said the geo was perfect for him with just bumping the post up a bit.
So yea, I was between Knolly sizes and went with the bigger one and liked it.

[creaky fossil]

my experience: if you're long-limbed and short-torso'd for your height, and your height is on the suggested frame size cusp, you're probably going to be happier on the larger of the 2. knollys and other slack STA bikes can put your hips too near the rear axle at full saddle height if you choose the smaller size, this can make the bike feel loopy on climbs. with a straighter STA it's less an issue.