ACL Recovery w/o Surgery? Hark, The Angels Sing!

[WaistDeepGroomers]

I have been fortunate not to have to deal with a knee injury thus far in my budding career as on off-hour amateur wannabe multi-sport athlete, but lord knows plenty of you have. Been seeing a bunch of articles about stem cell injection for torn knee ligaments capped off by Devon O'Neil's article on Outside's website:

http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness...e-Surgery.html

What do mags think? Will Steadman-Hawkins go out of business now? Would you go for it?

[systemoverblow'd]

I think splat did something with stem cells. There's a thread somewhere I think. I also know that Tim Ferriss claims to have reversed "permanent" sports injuries with human growth factors?

EDIT - Here's Splats thread.

[Lindahl]

Meh, surgery wasn't too bad and my knee is really strong now. I was even skiing at 5mo and jumping off stuff at 6mo. Hoji seems fine, too, after his. Not sure if I'd bother dicking around with that stuff, unless I was in my 50s and not in good shape. Maybe if there's lots of proven results in 5-10 years.

[spook]

my dad went to a conference where a doctor talked about directly injecting dmso for chronic pain.

[stompinlines]

I wouldn't volunteer myself as an early adapter to an alternative to a chip shot procedure like acl recon.
Cost/benefit ain't there.
Tim Ferriss?
Im hoping someone can tell me if Ron Popeil or Tony Robbins has tried this.

[Mazderati]

Had the procedure a few days ago as a complement to surgery, albeit in an area other than the knee. Process was interesting.

[systemoverblow'd]

Tim Ferriss?
Im hoping someone can tell me if Ron Popeil or Tony Robbins has tried this.

Do you even know anything about the guy? Oh wait, he doesn't ski so he doesn't know anything about the body and how it works. Retard.

[spook]

Who wants the orange pubes though?

i thought most of england was orange pubes

[bigdude2468]

I wouldn't volunteer myself as an early adapter to an alternative to a chip shot procedure like acl recon.
Cost/benefit ain't there.
Tim Ferriss?
Im hoping someone can tell me if Ron Popeil or Tony Robbins has tried this.

I am not an expert but seems a little sketchy for Grade 3 (complete) ACL tears. I can see it working for MCL's / LCL's where they will heal on their own without surgery; perhaps speeding up the process? But ACL's do not spontaneously heal themselves. I remember reading a paper some years ago and it mentioned that there were only two documented instances of an ACL reattaching without surgical intervention. I tore my ACL several years ago and not doing any other damage I was able to rehab and I get by quite nicely without it. I always ski with a DonJoy brace on and have gotten so use to it I never realize it is there but it is still torn. I just don't understand the science of getting a ligament (in my case that is torn mid substance) to reattach when the ends of the ligaments are not in contact with each other? How would stem cells get the ligaments to "magically" move together and stay in position long enough for them to reattach?

[grskier]

Nobody here will care until it makes some dents into dental work

[glademaster]

I am not an expert but seems a little sketchy for Grade 3 (complete) ACL tears. I can see it working for MCL's / LCL's where they will heal on their own without surgery; perhaps speeding up the process? But ACL's do not spontaneously heal themselves. I remember reading a paper some years ago and it mentioned that there were only two documented instances of an ACL reattaching without surgical intervention. I tore my ACL several years ago and not doing any other damage I was able to rehab and I get by quite nicely without it. I always ski with a DonJoy brace on and have gotten so use to it I never realize it is there but it is still torn. I just don't understand the science of getting a ligament (in my case that is torn mid substance) to reattach when the ends of the ligaments are not in contact with each other? How would stem cells get the ligaments to "magically" move together and stay in position long enough for them to reattach?

Yeah, but it's new, and new age, so of course it has to be the best. Duh.

[Mazderati]

Bone marrow transplantation started in the '50s and has worked out pretty well. Not exactly new or new age.

[bigdude2468]

Yeah, but it's new, and new age, so of course it has to be the best. Duh.

Kinda like the new paradigm back in the tech frenzy.

[stompinlines]

Yes. Im aware of Tim Ferriss.
He was a silver spoon fed kid.
He claims to be an expert on everything.
He sells books to lemmings.

The science of stem cells has a long way to go before it
should be used in knee ligament reconstruction.

[splat]

I don't see how it would realign a ligament to enable regrowth. However, based on my experience, which was 1000% positive and healing, it did regrow meniscus tissue, the loss of which (60%+) had crippled me because I was bowlegged. It kept me from have to get a wedge cut out of my tibial plateau, a surgery I considered to possibly end up crippling me even more. It also helped regrow a very torn bicep tendon and rotator cuff tissue.

So....I think if an acl is shredded with some tissue in place, stem cells would be able to grow new tissue along the ligament. I believe stem cells would also more rapidly and more thoroughly vascularize a hamstring replacement matrix. But I do not believe stem cells will grow a new hamstring from scratch, something which, from what little I know, would require the genetic code of a hamstring to be embedded in the stem cells being used. Dunfee, I find your repetition of this story to be rather sensationalistic.

[gibbssco]

Yo Maz, how are you feeling after the procedure?? Just had a cortisone shot pumped into my left hip yesterday at my checkup...seriously considering this as the next option in my quest for andriod hips to become a real boy. Was it stem cells from your hip mixed with PRP? Also, who did the procedure?

[Mazderati]

Yo, gibbs. That's right; stem cells (marrow) harvested from the iliac crest, mixed with PRP, and injected into the joint. Harvest site was sore for around one week with no real discomfort at injection site. Activity and PT reduced in the following weeks to allow for any therapy-related healing. Procedure by Thos Evans at Steadman. Joint feels a little better everyday. No telling if that's from passing time, the injection, or some combination. Ended up with more work than expected a few months' prior and was willing to give this procedure a shot in hope of extended joint life down the road.

[splat]

Yo, Maz, don't expect too much too soon, unless bone marrow stem cells pack a much bigger punch than omentum fat stem cells. In my running diary sob linked to, it was like day 108 when the whole thing kicked in to the point I felt like I had a bionic knee. That lasted about a week then it settled out to just waaaaaaay better. But I think I could really use another round of treatment about now. The redhead added a dash of hgh to the mix of stem cells and prp.

[Mazderati]

Splat - Read some of your other posts on stem cell injections and glad you've seen positive results thus far. Most available literature is case studies and anecdote, especially long-term, but I don't think it's a stretch to say there is promise in the treatment. We'd really be on to something if science can figure out how to define and purpose stem cells.

The guy who did my procedure said the FDA rules surrounding stem cells are archaic compared to some of the European medicine bodies. Apparently much of Europe allows stem cell culture while the US does not. The culture in Europe removes the need for donor withdrawals with every injection, and instead affords a large supply of stem cells for injections all around the body. Maintenance injection anyone?