Bitcoin....who's gotten into it?

[4matic]

I am coming close to 10x in less than 18 months. 10x takes several years/decades in traditional investing.

It's not a question of enough, pal. It's a Zero Sum game – somebody wins, somebody loses. Money itself isn't lost or made, it's simply transferred – from one perception to another. Like magic. This painting here? I bought it ten years ago for sixty thousand dollars. I could sell it today for six hundred. The illusion has become real, and the more real it becomes, the more desperately they want it. Capitalism at its finest.

[4matic]

I don't ever recall being taxed on exchanging any type of currency.

https://news.bitcoin.com/fedcoin-u-s-issue-e-currency/

Currency trading is taxed. Companies have it on the balance sheet and banks report cash/cash transactions in your personal account. Currency for goods is taxed on the goods.

Just last week:

"Last Thursday in California the two organizations convened in court to continue the controversial case, the “U.S. v. Coinbase 17-01431.” The recent hearing discussed the proposed IRS tax probe of Coinbase customers who used the platform from 2013-2015. According to multiple news outlets which attended the hearing, the U.S. Magistrate Judge, Jacqueline Scott Corley, has shown she favors the arguments brought forth by the IRS and believes the probe is warranted.

“It’s legitimate for them to investigate whether people are making money on their bitcoin purchases and paying taxes on any gains,” explains Judge Corley.

I have to give tremendous discretion to the agency as to how they investigate. The IRS: ‘Out of 500,000 Customers Less Than 900 Per Year Are Paying Taxes’

[Bobby Stainless]

I don't ever recall being taxed on exchanging any type of currency.

https://news.bitcoin.com/fedcoin-u-s-issue-e-currency/

I should've been more specific.

I have heard of people buying cars and homes and such with bitcoin. Is tax paid on those?

[mud]

Anyone have any personal feedback on bitcoin mining or hardware?

[Skidog]

Anyone have any personal feedback on bitcoin mining or hardware?

I can tell you that doing it at home in any real form would require more electricity than you'll gain in coin. The big boys have data centers full of miners. Cooling and electricity needs are big. I have some friend who dabbled early with at home setups and it was a losing game.

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[4matic]

I should've been more specific.

I have heard of people buying cars and homes and such with bitcoin. Is tax paid on those?

That’s money laundering. If the seller accepts untaxed gains and converts to dollars they also take the risk of tax confiscation.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

4matic, I am curious as to why you are so against it? It's like bitcoin is a personal attack on you lol.

[4matic]

I’m not against anything. If I’m taxed for trading muni bonds and forex you should be taxed for trading digital currency.

Exchange regulation is important and is there for a reason.

[mud]

I can tell you that doing it at home in any real form would require more electricity than you'll gain in coin. The big boys have data centers full of miners. Cooling and electricity needs are big. I have some friend who dabbled early with at home setups and it was a losing game.

10/4, I'll stick with algo and SPY 500.

[4matic]

CME contract trading is regulated and taxed. You don’t think CME is going to attack Coinbase as an unregulated exchange?

I’m also skeptical of a cash $ settled contract based on bitcoin. Read the trading limit rules for BTC contract.

[Kinnikinnick]

It’s a big experiment fueled by technology as religion. It MUST be great because it’s based on great technology. It’s a “currency” that isn’t really s currency in any historical sense. It isn’t a commodity as the first currencies were - salt, metals, tradable goods. Even today fiat currencies are based on the taxing/revenue generating ability of the issuing government. It isn’t a fiat based currency because it’s not backed by any entity other than the loose confederation of tech Bros and what is their ability to generate revenue for BC? None other than as long as it goes up people make money.

You could call it an asset but assets are based on some definable use or value. Gold is an asset because you can make pretty things or conductors etc out off it. Stocks are an asset because they produce revenue/income. What is bitcoin’s asset value based on?

The only value is that people are believing in technology. The underlying value is what? Only the hope that more and more people will use it and the price will go up or stay up because people believe in it.


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[ICantLogIn]

It’s a big experiment fueled by technology as religion. It MUST be great because it’s based on great technology. It’s a “currency” that isn’t really s currency in any historical sense. It isn’t a commodity as the first currencies were - salt, metals, tradable goods. Even today fiat currencies are based on the taxing/revenue generating ability of the issuing government. It isn’t a fiat based currency because it’s not backed by any entity other than the loose confederation of tech Bros and what is their ability to generate revenue for BC? None other than as long as it goes up people make money.

You could call it an asset but assets are based on some definable use or value. Gold is an asset because you can make pretty things or conductors etc out off it. Stocks are an asset because they produce revenue/income. What is bitcoin’s asset value based on?

The only value is that people are believing in technology. The underlying value is what? Only the hope that more and more people will use it and the price will go up or stay up because people believe in it.


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Blockchain, decentralization (think about your data central held for their profit by IDK Equifax ), smart contracts.

[Rontele]

I am FAR from an expert, real amateur here. I just happen to have a friend who knows his stuff so I listen to him and nibble away on dips for the aforementioned coins.

Taking investment advice from Phish show and splat are the true signs of a bubble ::

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

lol

Welcome to bizarro world.

[Rontele]

lol

Welcome to bizarro world.

I get blockchain and why it makes sense and likely is the future of financial transactions. I have dipped my toe into crypto mostly because I just don't understand it well enough to risk capital.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Yeah, I put in a couple grand to play with about 18 months ago and have been pleasantly surprised.

Oddly enough I was turned onto the crypto scene by a friend from CO who I met through PT 13/14 years ago. Dude has made a whole career out of crypto analysis and advising.

Strange world we live in.

[Kinnikinnick]

Blockchain, decentralization (think about your data central held for their profit by IDK Equifax ), smart contracts.

Blockchain is intriguing as far as I understand it. The verification of transactions by mass computing power all doubling checking each other has major benefits/potential. The theoretical reduction of fraud/theft could be huge. But Bitcoin isn't that technology in of itself. It is merely a specific implementation of it.

decentralization? Thats merely saying I wan't stuff to be hidden. Its a model that does well with security (potentially) and mistrust of government but that has huge negatives for society. Tax evasion is really enabled by this. Sure the IRS can have a rule to report gains to be taxed but it has no teeth with BC et al to hunt that data down like it can with banks and investment banks and what not. But I hear you, thats a major selling point especially for black market players - so perhaps that alone makes the case for BC. Although Govt intervention remains to be seen.

Smart Contracts - again thats not BC, thats what an implementation of Block Chain independant of BC, isn't it?

[Rontele]

Yeah, I put in a couple grand to play with about 18 months ago and have been pleasantly surprised.

Oddly enough I was turned onto the crypto scene by a friend from CO who I met through PT 13/14 years ago. Dude has made a whole career out of crypto analysis and advising.

Strange world we live in.

The PT asset allocation model is crypto, molly, cash and some firemost crystals for the stash.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I just shapeshifted a dozen quartz points, 3 pollocks, and a pair of JRAD tickets for a grip of cheap ether.

shapeshift.io/breh

[ICantLogIn]

decentralization? Thats merely saying I wan't stuff to be hidden.

Um no thats saying if I have my monies in Banko Americano and they get hacked or some idiot pushes the wrong button I lose all my monies, that can't happen with decentralization. Or identity verification, all my data on Equifax which is a central location is at risk. Check out Civic (CVC). .


I think med records would be a great on the blockchain, in fact lets write a white paper and kick off a ICO...

[frorider]

The price of bitcoin plunged by around 6% in the early morning today (Nov. 21) after news broke that nearly $31 million worth of Tether tokens had been hacked and stolen.

....

[ICantLogIn]

All time high now. Bitcoin is super resilient, Wall St made a bundle on that dip.

[JimmyCarter]

Um no thats saying if I have my monies in Banko Americano and they get hacked or some idiot pushes the wrong button I lose all my monies, that can't happen with decentralization. Or identity verification, all my data on Equifax which is a central location is at risk. Check out Civic (CVC). .

https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/t...n-a0c92b76a274

[ICantLogIn]

https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/t...n-a0c92b76a274

Yup boring story short.

Fault tolerance— decentralized systems are less likely to fail accidentally because they rely on many separate components that are not likely.
Attack resistance— decentralized systems are more expensive to attack and destroy or manipulate because they lack sensitive central points that can be attacked at much lower cost than the economic size of the surrounding system.
Collusion resistance — it is much harder for participants in decentralized systems to collude to act in ways that benefit them at the expense of other participants, whereas the leaderships of corporations and governments collude in ways that benefit themselves but harm less well-coordinated citizens, customers, employees and the general public all the time.

[Foggy_Goggles]

I read up a bit on this last night. I'd say I kinda understand it. The one issue I keep going back to is that, in my mind, for any asset to have value, it needs to have liquidity. As 'mericans, lets just say liquidity is conversion to $s. Who is making the market for this transaction?

Or is it value more a function of the increased about of transactions that can be conducted in bitcoins. In other words, is the future that or a truly alternate means of exchange AND currency or is it simply a means of exchange AND a speculative asset?

In other words, how easily and at what level of price certainty will bitcoins be convertable to cash going forward? I look at it like Russian Rubles. Sure it is a currency, but all my financial obligations are prices in $s so if I hold Rubles, I have risk is that I need to be paid an illiquidity premium and I have price uncertainly.

So if it trades like FX, is it analyzed like FX? Or are you guys that are bullish simply speculators?

What I'm rambling about is where is the intrinsic value in Bitcoins?