Outcast OSG Commander - Thoughts?

[ACheateaux]

While a 14' raft is in my short future, I need something to facilitate grab and go solo trips. My schedule leaves me fishing by myself a lot, so I'm looking at the Outcast OSG Commander for some alpine flat water and mellow floats.

http://www.outcastboats.com/outcast/products/?id=43

Anyone have one / paddled one / covent one? Looks to be spacious enough for my boat bag in the back and a sixer, just trying to figure out any bad news as all the reviews I've read have been nothing but glowing.

[neckdeep]

, just trying to figure out any bad news as all the reviews I've read have been nothing but glowing.

I can point out two drawbacks to this design. First, those pinned oars have a serious limitation in swift and shallow water. An pinned oarlock has no "give" if it digs into a rock and all the impact force gets transferred to the boat. So it's actually fairly easy to break oars or flip the boat by making a minor miscalculation in oar depth when the boat is at an angle in swift water. Manuvering can be tricky in skinny rapids. I have Watermasters (the Commander is a Watermaster knockoff) and I have broken two oars with the same oarlock design trying to run shallow class II-III. I know you said "mellow floats" but a lot of mellow floats have a short rapid or two in the mix and you can easily bust oars in fast class I with the pinned oarlock.

Second, it is PVC and bladder construction instead of a single wall. PVC shell design is durable for scraping rocks. Problem is if it does get a pinhole, it's a bitch to do repairs, especially on river. Single wall has the advantage of being able to just slap some tape over a pinhole and patching is fairly simple. I also think the footrest design could be a hassle compared to the Watermaster. Thats where you strip your line so I can envision trying to shoot line and constantly having a loop around those footrests. I think the Watermasters are about $500 more, but they have better materials and are custom built (made in Montana by anglers like you!) to your own leg length.

http://www.bigskyinflatables.com/

[ACheateaux]

Good food for thought.

All things being equal, would you prefer a boat with rocker or a flatter profile?

And how often do you use your Watermaster?

[gretch6364]

There is a thread somewhere talking about the watermaster. I know Schwerty really likes his.

[neckdeep]

Good food for thought.

All things being equal, would you prefer a boat with rocker or a flatter profile?

And how often do you use your Watermaster?

I don't think rocker or flat will make too much difference because there's a real limit to how much leverage you can generate with pinned oars on a pontoon (that are not attached to a rowing frame). I use my Watermasters less than I used to, but thats just me because I fish the drift boat rivers around here less and less each year. I routinely catch 20-40 trout a day by wet wading in the backcountry and I rarely see other anglers. Thats my thing, I like to hike into canyons that deter 99% of the locals and 100% of the tourists. I'll be using them soon enough though as Watermaster is awesome for getting into the Henry's Fork while the boat ramps are still snowed in.

[gretch6364]

Sounds cold!

[ak_powder_monkey]

watermaster is 15 pounds heavier though... All of these new solo packable boats look sick. I could carry a 35 pound boat to several places that they'd be super useful...

I probably wouldn't run it in anything above class II

any ideas on how the OGS boats handle running into logs/sticks?

[wardo]

I had a 'near death' experience in this boat 2 weeks ago. Some observations from that experience:

1) The weight distribution is almost entirely in the rear of the boat. This is bad in flowing water and makes it difficult to navigate while facing down current, I personally found it easier to back row for positioning. This absolutely sucks for fishing on rivers where you are trying to cover miles.

2) Compared to pontoon boats, you are sitting closer to the water. When finning, your knees are at water level and your legs extend further underwater. 2 weeks later, I still have 3 bruises from jacking rocks underwater. The positive to this is that you have more water to work your fins in. But from Class II+ I was much more sketched than my buddy on his pontoon, and he was able to 'absorb' rocks underwater better than me.

3) Grounding out. I grounded out on ledges that my buddy rolled over with ease. My natural tendency was to put my feet down when this happened. I had to quickly overcome that tendency. On one ledge in a Class III+ to IV situation, water started rolling over the back of the boat and started to push me out of the seat, when I put my feet down, the current caught the back of my legs and almost threw me out over the front of the boat, which was not fun.

4) Holes. I am still learning whitewater (and always will be). Unfamiliarity with this boat and general inexperience put me in the wrong spot a few times. Rolling over a hole, when facing down current and the back being so much heavier, I was sucked into the backflow quickly. Twice, the boat started to fold up in half on me. At first I thought I just didn't have enough air in it, but that wasn't the case since it happened with maximum pressure inflation. Having to use forward strokes to escape is inefficient and scary as hell, fins are useless in that situation.

For my 'near death' experience:

We came through a section of Class IVs (don't take this boat on Class IV's). The river mellowed into a retaining pool and then under a train bridge built on a ledge at an angle downstream to the right. All but two passages were covered in debris. My buddy chose the river right of the two and went first. The current created a pretty strong 'berm' off the bridge piling to his right meaning that the direction of the current changed backed to the left halfway under the bridge. The flow pushed him into the piling, on which one pontoon caught on the concrete while the other was pushed in the current beginning to spin him. He got nearly vertical and was at the literal tipping point when he got an oar on the piling and got a strong push off of it freeing himself. Seeing this, I chose the passage river left of his. Once committed, about 15 feet from the bridge, I realized that a tree blocking the entire passage to my left actually extended across the entire passage I chose at about a foot underwater. The current was too strong to bail on this approach. Having been flipped by trees underwater before, I kind of knew what to expect, so I braced myself to be able to balance the boat. Because your ass sits so low on this boat, it displaces water differently than pontoons or other kayaks. When I hit the tree, all water at the obstacle was displaced and it felt like a solid 20' rail slide into the concrete piling. During the slide, I felt I could still ride it out, but the second the boat touched the piling it flipped (very violently) plastering my head into the piling. Almost as instantly as the boat flipped, I was sucked underwater. The next thing I know, my face was being pushed into the base of the piling and I was pinned under debris underwater. Without panic, I worked hard to free myself from the debris, hit my head pretty hard on something and then somehow got free. The initial relief was instantly gone as I started somersaulting underwater bouncing off rocks and bottom as I went (couple bruises remain from that still). I was carried into a deep hole which allowed me to surface as I could use my fins to get my head above water. Yelled to my buddy who started after my boat, but was then sucked back down and started bouncing off rocks and bottom again. Went over another big boulder and had room to kick to surface again and was finally able to kick into a deep back eddy and get to the bank.

While much of this is user error, the boat is definitely not designed for anything above Class II.

My advice (for what it's worth): either invest in a pontoon or bite the bullet and get a 14' raft with a fishing frame and find a row bitch so you can fish.

[snapt]

Page 1 of the owners manual: "Know your limits"

[schwerty]

That boat doesn't appear sturdy enough for class IV from the pics. Might be wrong.

[wardo]

It's not. It is well built, but not designed for fast stuff. Class II is pushing it. Problems aren't with materials and craftmanship, it's with design.

[neckdeep]

I had a 'near death' experience in this boat 2 weeks ago. Some observations from that experience:

1) The weight distribution is almost entirely in the rear of the boat. This is bad in flowing water and makes it difficult to navigate while facing down current, I personally found it easier to back row for positioning. This absolutely sucks for fishing on rivers where you are trying to cover miles.

2) Compared to pontoon boats, you are sitting closer to the water. When finning, your knees are at water level and your legs extend further underwater. 2 weeks later, I still have 3 bruises from jacking rocks underwater. The positive to this is that you have more water to work your fins in. But from Class II+ I was much more sketched than my buddy on his pontoon, and he was able to 'absorb' rocks underwater better than me.

3) Grounding out. I grounded out on ledges that my buddy rolled over with ease. My natural tendency was to put my feet down when this happened. I had to quickly overcome that tendency. On one ledge in a Class III+ to IV situation, water started rolling over the back of the boat and started to push me out of the seat, when I put my feet down, the current caught the back of my legs and almost threw me out over the front of the boat, which was not fun.

4) Holes. I am still learning whitewater (and always will be). Unfamiliarity with this boat and general inexperience put me in the wrong spot a few times. Rolling over a hole, when facing down current and the back being so much heavier, I was sucked into the backflow quickly. Twice, the boat started to fold up in half on me. At first I thought I just didn't have enough air in it, but that wasn't the case since it happened with maximum pressure inflation. Having to use forward strokes to escape is inefficient and scary as hell, fins are useless in that situation.

For my 'near death' experience:

We came through a section of Class IVs (don't take this boat on Class IV's). The river mellowed into a retaining pool and then under a train bridge built on a ledge at an angle downstream to the right. All but two passages were covered in debris. My buddy chose the river right of the two and went first. The current created a pretty strong 'berm' off the bridge piling to his right meaning that the direction of the current changed backed to the left halfway under the bridge. The flow pushed him into the piling, on which one pontoon caught on the concrete while the other was pushed in the current beginning to spin him. He got nearly vertical and was at the literal tipping point when he got an oar on the piling and got a strong push off of it freeing himself. Seeing this, I chose the passage river left of his. Once committed, about 15 feet from the bridge, I realized that a tree blocking the entire passage to my left actually extended across the entire passage I chose at about a foot underwater. The current was too strong to bail on this approach. Having been flipped by trees underwater before, I kind of knew what to expect, so I braced myself to be able to balance the boat. Because your ass sits so low on this boat, it displaces water differently than pontoons or other kayaks. When I hit the tree, all water at the obstacle was displaced and it felt like a solid 20' rail slide into the concrete piling. During the slide, I felt I could still ride it out, but the second the boat touched the piling it flipped (very violently) plastering my head into the piling. Almost as instantly as the boat flipped, I was sucked underwater. The next thing I know, my face was being pushed into the base of the piling and I was pinned under debris underwater. Without panic, I worked hard to free myself from the debris, hit my head pretty hard on something and then somehow got free. The initial relief was instantly gone as I started somersaulting underwater bouncing off rocks and bottom as I went (couple bruises remain from that still). I was carried into a deep hole which allowed me to surface as I could use my fins to get my head above water. Yelled to my buddy who started after my boat, but was then sucked back down and started bouncing off rocks and bottom again. Went over another big boulder and had room to kick to surface again and was finally able to kick into a deep back eddy and get to the bank.

While much of this is user error, the boat is definitely not designed for anything above Class II.

My advice (for what it's worth): either invest in a pontoon or bite the bullet and get a 14' raft with a fishing frame and find a row bitch so you can fish.

Damn. Were you guys even wearing life jackets? Helmets? Helmets are standard gear for Class 4. Now you know why. The description of your swim, however, sounds like you didn't have on a life jacket and that's just stupid or crazy...You know there's another basic whitewater skill? It's called "scouting"; instead of just diving into a debris choked pourover, first you scout the rapid so you don't end up drowned in a strainer. Seriously. This tale makes it sound like you play russian roulette for fun when you aren't out wrecking boats. Don't mean to be snarky about it, but this is just begging for some tough love when it comes to whitewater safety.

[wardo]

Agreed. Plain stupid. I'm very lucky to be able to say I learned from this. No helmet (have one now), had just put PFD in dry bag to put on rain gear, wearing waders, no throw bag. Section we floated is Class II - III in normal flows (not normal this year). My buddy claims he was told by a guide that the hard stuff was washed over and was 'easily' doable in our boats. I lobbied hard to portage the bridge but he went and I stupidly followed.

On wearing waders: if anyone thinks having them fill with water will weigh you down, it's a myth. It's a bigger problem when they've still got air in them, I believe the air keeping my ass buoyant was my biggest problem while pinned on the sieve. Once filled with water, it's like wearing any other piece of clothing and was probably the reason I was able to wiggle out of it.

On no PFD: The one with me that day was a self inflater. I will never use a self inflater on whitewater again. I believe had I been wearing it, I would not have escaped the sieve - if the floatation didn't pin me under the lip of the debris, the straps would have likely tangled in the debris based on how many sharp pokes I took to my back. I switched to my normal kayak PFD after that.

I believe I escaped 2 hazard scenarios that account for the majority of whitewater deaths: 1) Sieve obstructions. And 2) Flush drowning.

I find no pleasure in recounting and admitting to the level of stupidity with which I conducted myself. I do hope others can learn from my experience, and that's the value in me sharing this story.

[wardo]

And... From this point forward, I don't care if I'm floating 40 miles of class I with 40 feet of Class III features. I'll be the gaper fishing with a helmet on.

[ACheateaux]

So what you're saying is you got one you want to sell?

[wardo]

Nice. Going to keep it, just won't take it on anything above Class IIs. Also going to get a 10' pontoon for faster stuff, take some classes, buy more safety gear, slay some demons. You learn more from mistakes than from anything else...