Stiff Boots for Tiny Feet and Big Calves—A Bootfitting Nightmare

[auvgeek]

I’m trying to help my girl, jesski (great skier coming off an ankle injury) find some new boots. She has 500+ days (with multiple resoles) on her current shells, and the plastic is just worn out. (The original 110 flex is now like 70.) We’ve spent much time, gas, and money trying to find something that works.

Her anatomy: True 22 length, AA heel, B forefoot, big, low calf, and short tibia (she’s 5’3”). When she shell fits a boot, her calf always hits first—sometimes her heel will touch too (if the heel pocket is deep enough), but no boot has allowed her whole lower leg (calf, Achilles, and heel) to touch the back of the shell naturally. Consequently, her calf always pitches her forward in the boot, i.e., her tibia is not at the designed fwd lean. She likes an upright boot, but that can be somewhat corrected with an external toe lift provided the back of the boot is the right shape for her leg. (She’s also slightly knock-kneed with a high Q-angle, but that can be fixed with a slight cant.) It goes without saying that she wants a true 22 (bsl under 270), not a 23 shell with a toe dam and smaller liner.

Essentially, she needs a boot with the following criteria:

1. A narrow, well-defined heel pocket.
2. A simple upper that can be blown out in the calf region.
3. Narrow volume (97 max).
4. A stiff (120+) flex.

Unfortunately, we only came up with three off-the-shelf options for her to try. Besides the following, are there any other boots that fit the above criteria? Here are some notes on each:

Dalbello Kryzma: (smallest fwd lean shim, B tongue)

1. Best heel hold of the three.
2. Deal breaker: Two of Seattle’s better bootfitters (Jim Mates and Kelly Timmons) were unable to make room in the upper for her huge calf. With the way the upper mates to the lower in the KR2 shell, there’s just no way to get more volume in that area.
3. Would prefer lower volume in the mid- and fore-foot: can buckle lower buckle all the way down without pain in the molded stock (PW plug) liner.
4. She liked the flex with the B tongue.

Lange RS 110 SC LV:

1. Deal Breaker: Terrible heel hold
2. Kelly Timmons said he could blow out the calf with heat and a weight.
3. Deal breaker: Too much volume. Could buckle the lower two buckles all the way down without any pain with the molded PW Plug liner.
4. Pretty soft for the 110, but 120 may work. Tried with a PW Plug.

Head Raptor 110 MYA:

1. Not as good as the Kryzma, but would might work with a ZipFit.
2. Likely able to mod the upper via Kelly’s heat+weight method
3. Nice, low volume. Only buckled 2 notches on the lower buckles. Might even need some punching.
4. Deal Breaker: Boot folds when she flexes it at room temp. Just not stiff at all, even with a PW plug liner.

Are there any other boots that fit the above criteria? What else can we try on? At this point, we’re considering the Raptor 110 MYA with a ZipFit and WC booster strap for additional stiffness, but I hate to buy a boot where the plastic isn't perfect. As any decent bootfitter knows, you can make a small boot bigger and a stiff boot softer, but going the opposite direction is hard. Are there ANY men's boots that come in a 130 flex and a 267ish bsl? She'd prefer a short cuff for her short tibia, but I just want to see if there's a possibility of having her try on a men's boot.

Any bootfitters out there able to fit great female skiers with a size 22/women’s 7 foot? What do you guys do? I honestly have trouble understanding how this is so difficult, given the number of women who wear a 7.5 running shoe—I guess they’re all just skiing boots that are too big…

[BushwackerinPA]

whats her current boot? find those again?

[Two06]

Tecnica Demon 120? 22 might be a dammed 23 through. Go to Surefoot at Whistler, those liners add great stiffness to whatever shell you decide on.

[auvgeek]

whats her current boot? find those again?

They don't make them anymore. It's an old Atomic high-performance women's boot that Atomic had trouble selling so they quit making it. Their current "Hawx" isn't even close. IIRC, when she talked to the Atomic guy at SIA about it, he basically said, "Good luck finding a women's boot like that on the market."

It was a true (old-school) 115 flex with a huge calf area (the liners even came with *double* calf spoilers so girl with big calves could take both out. It seemed very well designed.

[butterscotch]

My wife has big, low calves and skinny feet. (And also, toenails that seem to grow upward.) When I met her, she was skiing in a boot two sizes too big because it was the only thing her calves would fit into.

We tried a ton of boots last year and this year and nothing worked until she tried one of the Fischer boots with the vacuum fit -- she absolutely loves them.

Looks like the stiffest women's boot Fischer makes is a 110 (the Trinity 110), and I think the smallest shell is a 273. So not quite meeting your needs, but they might be worth a shot?

[capulin overdrive]

Vacuum was first thought.


The old intuition liners like the classic or the Scarpa universal take up less room in the calf area than a powerwrap. So maybe that?

Zipfit sounds scary, they got a lot of stuff in the calf area. Plus seems a wrap would be better than a tongue?

[auvgeek]

Her calves are so big that the "wrap" doesn't really wrap at all. And it's a powerwrap PLUG which is about as thin material as you can get back there. I don't think Zipfit has all that much stuff in the calf area—it can all be moved around when they're molded, right? Also, if the calf is blown out, the volume shouldn't be that big of an issue.

Frankly, like I said above, I'd like to solve this with the best shell for her and then move to liner choices. Heating up a shell and dropping a big weight in it shouldn't be an issue if it's a simple cuff (unlike the KR2, which has a bunch of design work in that area to avoid deforming the lower when it flexes).

I thought about the Fischer vacuum, too, but the problem is that the smallest shell appears to be a 273 (as was mentioned) and also that the Vacuum series is notoriously soft.

[capulin overdrive]

Had to go give a look at my zipfits (gara I think?), and yea guess you're somewhat right. They are fairly close to intuition in thickness, but they only mold on the inside of the liner. Outside of liner in leather around the ankle, and solid plastic up around the calf.

Made my comment based on my experience with them, I was spreading the shell pretty good around the calf in them, but not in the intuitions.


Sounds like you got a tough one.


Dale boot maybe?

[auvgeek]

^^Thanks for the thoughts re zipfit. Intuition HD Race or a conformables liner might work better. We'll try to figure the liner situation out after we get the shell that best meets the above 4 criteria. Right now, that Head boot seems to be winning even if we can't get it much stiffer with a different liner.

It is a tough one...I'm just struggling hard to figure out WHY it's so hard!! A girl with a size 7.5 running shoe with athletic calfs can't be all that uncommon!?* I just don't get it at all.

*You're still special, jesski!

[capulin overdrive]

Between the store and outlet, EVO has 50 deferent boots in a 22.5.

Just a handful above a 100 flex, but atleast give you something to look at.

[abraham]

No advice about fit, but the head raptors I have certainly stiffen up a bunch in the cold. They are from a few years ago so I don't know if they changed the plastics or anything.
In t shirt weather I wish I had a stiffer boot but at that point it's all fun anyways and I'm usually drinking with friends

[Smails]

Maybe the Raptor B5?

[weasel1]

Dobermann EDT 130. Takes an upper cuff spine bend really well, adapts well to forefeet and has good heel hold. I was able to shape mine easily for my cave troll calves. Great boot. UK3 is a 22.
http://shop.nordicausa.com/Product/05003000100/dobermann-dobermann-edt-130

[turnfarmer]

If the current boots ok do an eBay search, save it get an email when the items available, buy it cheap. Alternatively, find a boot that works every where else and either send it to mike at southern ski tools to have the calf punched put or find a fitter that has his cool calf stretcher tool
http://www.southernski.com/toe-jam-s...stretcher.html

[auvgeek]

Between the store and outlet, EVO has 50 deferent boots in a 22.5.

Just a handful above a 100 flex, but atleast give you something to look at.

Dude, I HAVE looked at all those boots. If you have one in particular you think would meet the above 4 criteria, PLEASE let me know!

We've been to almost every shop in the Seattle area, including evo and Sturtevant's. As said before, we've seen Jim Mates and Kelly Timmons, two of the more-reputable fitters in the Seattle-area. She's also worked with Martin Rand before, but we both have passes to Stevens and didn't want to pay for lift tickets at Chrystal with such low coverage on top of boot fitting costs.

No advice about fit, but the head raptors I have certainly stiffen up a bunch in the cold. They are from a few years ago so I don't know if they changed the plastics or anything.

I'll investigate further, but I don't think that's the case with these (as much as I'd like it to be.) As I understand it, some companies have switched to the black plastic because black is (generally) less temperature sensitive than other colors. IIRC, this is part of the reason Tecnica switched their race shells (R9.8 series) to black from their signature orange (Inferno series). Oddly, this year's 110 MYA changed from white to black, while Head kept the same white PU for the rest of the Raptor line.

Maybe the Raptor B5?

Can you (or anyone else) confirm the BSL on the 22 B5? Thanks!

[jesski]

Thanks everyone who has chimed in here and also in the thread I initially posted, but then later deleted when auv posted up this better summary of what we're dealing with.

I am going to research any boot that someone posts up in this thread. I've already researched several, but I want to address/ talk about the way we're coming at a couple of the usual "solutions" suggested both here and when we walk into a shop. I'm trying hard not to rant too much about this, but it's sort of ridiculous.

In particular, I keep hearing,

"there are a lot of boots in a 22.0 or 22.5."

Okay, sure, there are a lot of boots that leave a distribuition center with the number "22," or "22.5" printed on the side of the box.

But I have a relatively narrow foot (by ski industry standards, though most likely not by statistical standards.) I don't require punching in many boots with a stated 97mm last. On the contrary, that's about right. The head boot mentioned above is snug without buckling (though head calls it a 98 last and I suspect it's more like a 96, while the Lange LV is huge across the forefoot.) You can add volume to a boot easily, but you cannot *really* take away volume in a way that's meaningful or effective. C'mon, you guys know this.

While there are plenty of boots that come in a "22," there are few boots that have a ~97mm last that also come in a 22-- a real 22-- not a 24 with a toe dam, or a 23 with a fluffy liner. I am really looking for what comes in around a 265 mm shell (what I consider a true 22.)

Take the example of evo, as suggested by capulin overdrive. Seems promising, right? If you filter in "all ski boots" "size 22," their site boasts 8 offerings, while "size 22-22.5," one boot, and "size 22.5" has 28 boots offered. So evo would, it seems, carry between 28 and 37 boot models in my approximate BSL. Let's start with the most promising (well, most populated) set of boots: what evo calls size 22.5.

Now we scroll to the side where we can further select forefoot width or stiffness. Suppose I wanted something sub-99mm in a 100+ flex.
This supposition isn’t really a huge leap of faith. I do indeed want something sub-99mm and 100+ stated flex. In fact, I want something sub-97 and 120+ flex, but let's not dream big. Let's just see if there's something in the ballpark-- something that accommodates, say, a girl who wears a size 7-8 women’s street shoe and skis at an intermediate level. The thing is, I don't have weird feet. I wear a wide running shoe and fit most pumps and dress shoes exactly out of the box. I've had ankle injuries, but statistically, there should be plenty of women who have the same size and shape foot as me. When I go shoe shopping for regular lady shoes, it's not hard. I don't have to go to the back and ask a salesgirl for the "special sizes" rack. But I digress. Again, let's not dream big: let's pretend anything sub-99mm and 100+ flex will work. How many of these qualify? Let's see. According to the website, there's:

• The Tecnica Cochise 105. It flexes at a whopping 105 stated flex. Sure, that’s sloppy, and most guys wouldn’t dream of putting up with that, but let’s say it works. Does it really come in a 22.5? How’s the last width? Tecnica says it’s a 98mm last. Oh joy! I try it on, and maybe it really is a 98 last… in a 27. But as it turns out the 22.5 is really just a 24 with a toe dam and even the size 24 is not what one would typically consider a “98mm last.” In fact, this is the biggest, sloppiest boot I’ve ever put my foot inside. And I’m including touring boots that are two sizes too big. But at least it comes with an alpine touring mode, pink and white buckles, and a metal plate in the back. Btw, BSL on this beast is a 280. Hmm.

• Full Tilt Rumor Ski Boots- Women’s 2014: While few would probably give this boot a flex above 90, an argument could be made for running a size S #9 tounge, for example. Too bad Full Tilt, also, doesn’t have a mold with a BSL under 270.

Oh, and that’s all from Evo.

So my question is, what do you do, when a girl with athletic calves (btw, auv might be exaggerating how burly my calves are a little bit) and regular feet who can’t wear a size large enough to be a men’s boot comes into your shop? How do you deal with that? Do you just tell her to special order plug boots and hope for the best? Is that all? I mean, really, that can’t be all. I don’t get it.

I wear a women’s medium ski pant. I don’t have small feet for my height. When I shop for running shoes, they’re out of my size first, so I’m not some kind of weird foot length.

Plus, demographically, why aren’t boot companies making a siffer boot that accommodates an athletic calf and average women’s foot that maybe has slightly narrow heels? I mean, let’s pretend I had regular-sized heels. I still need a 96ish last just to get the forefoot fit right. You’d think, demographically, that it would make sense for ski companies to make a boot that size. And you’d think that the girl who buys ski boots, prolly has some calf muscle. These don’t seem like crazy assumptions.

Per unscientific google search, the average female adult shoe size in the US is a 9, and a 6 in the UK. The average 5’4” woman wears a size 6 US street shoe. Not to mention that skiing is still a sport primarily dominated (in the US) by white women. I'm not trying to be racist here, but caucasian women have even smaller feet on average (though how much smaller starts to get really convoluted when you're just spending a little time on google.) Given these numbers, and the fact that I wear a 7.5 US street shoe, I should be somewhere near the middle of the distribution bell curve, not all the way on the end flailing on the small edge of the mondopoint cliff…

[auvgeek]

Alternatively, find a boot that works every where else and either send it to mike at southern ski tools to have the calf punched put or find a fitter that has his cool calf stretcher tool
http://www.southernski.com/toe-jam-s...stretcher.html

So I'll definitely call Mike, but I'm a little skeptical. Jim Mates uses a hydraulic press tool to make the boot more upright, and uses that successfully to make boots more upright (including my pair of Scorpions). The problem is that jesski's boots are so small that his press blew out the heel pocket in the process. Kelly Timmons uses another method to stretch the calf that works on most boots, but he said it wouldn't work on the Kryzma (which was the best heel hold and flex) because of the construction of the Kryzma's spine.

But maybe, just maybe, Mike can make them work. Thanks so much for heads up! Very helpful.

[mntlion]

fulltilt soul sister = 98mm, and add a 8 or 10 flex tounge/ 268mm BSL

Nordica patron @ 98mm = 270 BSL but migth be too tight on the calf

Salomon X3 shell,@ 98mm = 265mm and that should fit a calf.

nordica or technica both make 95 to 98mm race boots in 267-270mm: again not sure on the calf, but worth a shot.

Technia race 90 might work, they make a 21 @ 260mm BSL, and a 22 @ 270BSL. the cuff is lower (like langes) and the shape is 98mm.

FYI: cochise in 22 and 23 are the same shell @ 280mm BSL. the 24 is a 290mm. But yes, this sucks, and will still not work for you.

FYI: lange on the low cuff version is the same upper as the "tall version" just lowered by 15?ish mm. you can get ANY cuff cut down in size and height. Is it the boots top that is the issue, or the lower (more at the boots flex point) that is too tight?

If you ever make it to banff, stop in and see me. Our store has just about all of the above boots IN 22. (yes, REAL 22)

[jesski]

fulltilt soul sister = 98mm, and add a 8 or 10 flex tounge/ 268mm BSL

Nordica patron @ 98mm = 270 BSL but migth be too tight on the calf

Salomon X3 shell,@ 98mm = 265mm and that should fit a calf.

nordica or technica both make 95 to 98mm race boots in 267-270mm: again not sure on the calf, but worth a shot.

Technia race 90 might work, they make a 21 @ 260mm BSL, and a 22 @ 270BSL. the cuff is lower (like langes) and the shape is 98mm.

FYI: cochise in 22 and 23 are the same shell @ 280mm BSL. the 24 is a 290mm. But yes, this sucks, and will still not work for you.

FYI: lange on the low cuff version is the same upper as the "tall version" just lowered by 15?ish mm. you can get ANY cuff cut down in size and height. Is it the boots top that is the issue, or the lower (more at the boots flex point) that is too tight?

If you ever make it to banff, stop in and see me. Our store has just about all of the above boots IN 22. (yes, REAL 22)

1- Super, super helpful. THANK YOU.

2- Re the boot top vs lower, it depends on the boot. But in general, our strategy has been just finding a lower that fits correctly attached to an upper that can be cut down/ stretched easily enough.

3- We might be touring in your area over his spring break. A long time out, but if we are in the area, we will *definitely* stop in and see you.

[abraham]

I'll investigate further, but I don't think that's the case with these (as much as I'd like it to be.) As I understand it, some companies have switched to the black plastic because black is (generally) less temperature sensitive than other colors. IIRC, this is part of the reason Tecnica switched their race shells (R9.8 series) to black from their signature orange (Inferno series). Oddly, this year's 110 MYA changed from white to black, while Head kept the same white PU for the rest of the Raptor line.

Huh, mine are the grey ones from before the white. I know one day I left them in the back of a pickup on a below 0 day and it took someone else pulling them open for me to jam my foot in.

Just remembered one of my friends had stiff 265 boots. I think she had to get junior race or plug boots, maybe technicas? I know she had a bunch of work done on them But I don't think she had an issue with large calves.

You still around? I just got those gpos mounted.

[jfost]

how about custom carbon uppers for the lower of your choice?

[Smails]

Can you (or anyone else) confirm the BSL on the 22 B5? Thanks![/QUOTE]

Heads run small. My 26 130RS is 303 so I am guessing 263

[auvgeek]

^^But you're sure it comes in a 22? The website says the size run starts at a 23 for the B2 and B3.

Oops, I see now that you meant the B5, which is a junior's boot. You're right, it does have a 263 bsl. As said above, we tried the 110 MYA (essentially a B5 w. a 98 last), but the 110 flex was too soft. Maybe the "110" flex in a juniors boot is stiffer...?

[jesski]

Update: we've been trying to make headway with Head's CS dept as to the characteristics of the B5, since we can't seem to find a good place to try them on. Anyone know, off-hand, how the B5 might fit, relative to the Raptor MYA?

[Beyond]

If the Heads don't fit, another labor intensive thought: Lange RP ZA plug comes in 22.5, which means a 22 shell far as I know, is 92 mm wide, and has Lange's architecture that favors narrow feet, especially at rear. As a plug, can be ground out to precise dimensions. Yep, 140 flex, but that can be modified down some, and anyway it sounds like you find most 110-120 boots to be noodles. So what's left is the calf issue, and the top of the boot could be blown out or cut down as mentioned earlier.