Cheap softshells -- is there an actual technology or performance difference?

[Spats]

I picked up a softshell at Costco for about $23. It's comfortable and fits me well, appears to be well-made, and though I've only worn it a few times, it seems to breathe OK. Water splashes bead up and fall off, though like all softshells AFAIK, it's not waterproof (haven't had it out in a snowstorm yet). The tag claims it's a 3-layer laminate.

Is there an actual technology or performance difference between something like this and the $100-200 softshells sold by high-end companies? Or are we all just paying for brand names -- even more so than with hardshells?

[jono]

The cheapskate in me likes where you're going but yes, there's a difference. The Costco ones are phenomenal for working in the woods etc; I have a friend that carries chainsaws over his shoulder and has been pleased with the durability. I got one last year that's very warm, but it doesn't breathe worth a damn--I wouldn't even think of skiing in it, although I've seen it done. Another friend...not pleased, wet every time he stops. No idea if it's all sweat or some melt water or what, but I won't wear that for a brisk walk unless it's really cold. Scroll down to the softshell thread for options, maybe page 2 or 3; there are cheaper ones that work, just not Costco cheap.

[Lindahl]

There are 3 types of softshells:
* Stretch-woven
* Perforated Laminate/Membrane
* Laminate/Membrane

The stretch-woven kinds are highly breathable. They block most of the wind. You feel a light breeze on really windy days. They will shed snow. On the wettest of snow days, the face material can saturate. Depending on your body chemistry, your work level, and the rate of snowfall, some people can generate enough body heat to keep perfectly dry (loss of body heat through the material drives the moisture out - see Buffalo/Paramo clothing systems for better science on how this works). Thinner material is better here.

The perforated kinds are marginally breathable, effectively block all wind, and will shed snow. The face material can saturate. When the face material saturates, you generally lose all breathability, and you may feel some wetness leak through. If you're working hard, the loss of breathability will generally cause you to become wet from sweat.

The laminate kinds are about as breathable as a hardshell, which is to say, pretty much not breathable at all. They'll breath somewhat through the seams, as the seams are generally untaped, but it's not a huge difference. They block all wind. Just like the perforated types, the face material can saturate. When the face material saturates, you generally lose all breathability, and you might feel some wetness come through at the untaped seams. As with the perforated, if you're working hard, the loss of breathability will generally cause you to become wet from sweat.

Stretch-wovens and laminates can be found relatively cheap. Laminates are more common, as Joey in NYC wants a softshell that he can wear in the rain, and stretch-wovens suck in the rain. Schoeller WB-400 and Polartec Powershield are the only perforated softshell membranes on the market, and thus, they are expensive. These are the only kinds of softshells that have truly innovative technology.

I prefer stretch-wovens, by far, for touring situations. On really cold days, it's an outer layer, with a puffy thrown on top for skiing down. On cold to warm days, I skin up in a baselayer, and throw the stretch-woven on for the descent. If I get above treeline and it gets windy, I'll sometimes wear it as well, especially if it's cloudy. Between a single baselayer and the stretch-woven, I can pretty much completely avoid sweating on a tour, while staying protected from the elements, in temperatures from -15F to 50F, from cold and stormy to springtime sun. My stretch-woven also makes a excellent outer layer at the resort on warm, calm, sunny days. For touring, I find that stretch-wovens are even better as pants, except when breaking trail through the wettest of snow. I never have to mess with vents, and stay pretty much sweat free.

Perforated works quite well in stormy cold conditions. They keep you a bit warmer, but I tend to sweat in them when touring, and they're pretty heavy to carry on the pack. I think they make a great resort jacket though in those conditions. I know Dane1 loves these types for alpine rock/ice climbing, and I think for stop and go activities they make a lot of sense.

Laminates don't really make much sense to me. They're heavy and I'd rather have a real hardshell that won't saturate as easily in heavier snow. I know people like BigSteve likes them next to skin as a baselayer/outershell combined because he sweats profusely doing just about anything, and it will act as a vapor barrier.

Keeping the DWR fresh will help prevent the face fabrics on all types from saturating.

BOOM!

[CaliBrit]

Love the boom.

[jono]

Good synopsis, assuming the jacket in question actually has a DWR finish; if not it kinda throws off a lot of what we're used to, especially if saturation and loss of breathability comes sooner. Also, I think that directional 'fur' inside the Costco jacket, if that's the right one, may not breathe as well as simple poly fleece, FWIW.

[Lindahl]

Good synopsis, assuming the jacket in question actually has a DWR finish; if not it kinda throws off a lot of what we're used to, especially if saturation and loss of breathability comes sooner.

Water splashes bead up and fall off,

Not all DWRs are created equal though.

[Dry]

Not all DWRs are created equal though.

bingo..more than some truth to that.
Nice write up btw. Neiither are all perforated membranes equal.

Schoeller WB-400 and Polartec Powershield are the only perforated softshell membranes on the market, and thus, they are expensive. These are the only kinds of softshells that have truly innovative technology.

The big change not mentioned is Polartec Powershield PRO. It is a big step up in performorance on anything else I have seen/used. Been around 4 years now at least. Very expensive fabrcis so few makers have been useing it. Even fewer realised just how good it really is/can be until recently. Weight isn't an issue in the best of the fPro abrics, it can be lighter than most Goretex shells and a lot lighter than the typical soft shell. Patagonia Knifeblade Series weight fabrics have to be used to believed. No hype..just the facts

It is hard to keep up on all this stuff. I work with it every day and stil get surprised by something "new" that is really a few years old already. Had the Powershield Pro tops and bottoms at least 3 years now and it took me till last winter to really realise what I had. I thought..ya just more "Powershield" while being distracted by the newest Neoshell garments. Boy was that a mistake! Not that Neoshell was bad, it isn;t. Just that Powershield Pro might be the holy grail to date for outdoor fabrics.

Word? I think Polartech Polar Shield Pro is THE most enovative outdoor fabric system to date. I don't make that statement lightly. I have it in 4 or 5 different fabric weights/face/liner and each one is simply exceptional. For my lift skiing and climbing pants and tops, the Pro fabrics have replaced virually all my pervious systems. I am still pretty much a lycra guy for BC skiing weather permitting. Weather not permitting I am using a lwt shell soft or hard and a Nano puff depending on the conditions.

Take a look around here and see what others using the Pro version of the fabric are saying. Easy to get it all confused. Unless of course you have been able to use the Pro version. Sadly it aint cheap.

The thing not mentioned...is 4 way stretch. I'm not interested in fabrics that don't stretch these days. Pro has stretch in spades. We have some Costco Soft shells in the house as well. Great stuff for the price. But there is no stretch. For me that is a deal killer if you actually want to use it as we intend outdoors. Nice as beater clothing though..

[neck beard]

It is all a bit hard to keep track of for me (which brand uses what).

But Lindahl's write up is on the mark in terms of performance attributes across materials.

[Smoova]

I got one last year that's very warm, but it doesn't breathe worth a damn--I wouldn't even think of skiing in it ... I won't wear that for a brisk walk unless it's really cold.

My experience exactly.

[dewam]

I had an old Arcteryx softshell that worked very well. I picked up the Black Diamond "softshell" at Costco for twenty something bucks three years ago. As others have said the Costco jacket is now my beater/work jacket. I was shopping for a real softshell soon after using the Costco jacket and ended up with a Cloudveil. All three jackets have given me good value, but I really wouldn't call the Costco jacket a softshell.

[Hugh Conway]

Well, yes, you are paying for the brandname. For all of the stuff the elephant is fabric sourcing, what, what treatment. For some, good, brands it's spelled out. For others it's not. For some brands like Patagonia they make the same stuff with different fabrics in different seasons, or more fucking annoyingly, some of their "web specials" have been a similar cut but with different fabrics or not the same selection (to me, famously, their web special R1 hoody that chintzed out on the nice fleece at the cuffs and waist, but wasn't described on their web store. Some of the military run patagucci stuff was marketed as "the same" but was "similar"). It's a mess.

[hutash]

The answer is yes, no, maybe. With the global economy it has become exceedingly difficult to tell the difference between products because there are so many variables. Sometime the fabric used by say pattigucci as exactly the same as knock brands. For a while all the soft shell material came from Malden Mills, so fabric spec-ed out the same was exactly the same. Now with other mills producing fabric, who knows. The knock off brands might use the exact same Chinese sewing plant that name brands use, but use cheaper threads, zipper, fastener, etc, or they might be exactly the same, just sewing in a different label, essentially stealing all the R/D work and saving a ton. This allows them to sell the $150 jacket for $25.

[ts01]

The answer is, Patagonia Knifeblade, when it comes on the web special if $$ an issue. And it has been on special two years running b/c people don't want to buy the simple light goodness of the pullover design.

Simple, durable, breathable, windproof, waterproof enough for every type of "mixed precip" I've skied and hiked in for the past two years.

[userA]

It is all a bit hard to keep track of for me (which brand uses what).

But Lindahl's write up is on the mark in terms of performance attributes across materials.

with extra flair.
b

[iamchappy]

You can find the Cloudveil Firsturns soft shell hooded jackets new fairly cheap here and there, i bought one at TJ Maxx last year for around 60 bucks. There a nice lightweight soft shell i wish i had bought two.

[Spats]

Lindahl: thank you for the exhaustive writeup! That clears up a lot of mysterious marketing BS.

Update: having just took it out on an unintentional epic, I'm sure this year's Costco softshell is different than previous years.

1. Yes, it's 4-way stretch.
2. It's definitely breathable: I used it as a mid-layer under a Patagonia shell, and after overheating for a while, the inside of the shell was noticeably wet while the softshell remained dry.
3. It might even be perforated: it doesn't feel like it's 100% windproof (maybe 98%) and it's much harder to sweat up than you'd think despite the lack of pit zips.

For $23 I'm quite pleased.

Note that I'm using it mostly as an insulating mid-layer instead of a traditional fleece, as it's warmer for less bulk: I don't really see the point of a shell that's not 100% waterproof and windproof unless you like your clothes Euro-tight and need the stretch.

[Lindahl]

2. It's definitely breathable: I used it as a mid-layer under a Patagonia shell, and after overheating for a while, the inside of the shell was noticeably wet while the softshell remained dry.

Believe it or not, that actually isn't a good measure of breathability. The moisture you create is water vapor. Water vapor moves through laminates pretty well, until the vapor cools and becomes water/sweat. When the vapor hits the outer laminate (hardshell), it cools. The air on both sides of the softshell in such situations can be relatively warm, since your hardshell traps in heat. Thus, the water vapor will always be trapped (condense) on the inside of the outer laminate. You would likely see the opposite if you reversed the layers. The water vapor would condense on the interior of the softshell if it was worn outside the hardshell.

You can abuse these physics when sleeping in extreme cold. Carry a down bag, toss it inside a synthetic overbag, and the moisture that would normally collect inside your down bag (if you took just one superwarm one) will instead collect in the synthetic overbag. You can then abuse the properties of the synthetic insulation to easily keep your sleep system dry over long trips. Why not just bring a single synthetic bag? In extreme cold, a dual bag system is a LOT lighter and packs a LOT smaller, because most of the warmth is provided via down. This technique is often used in long term arctic trips.

I don't really see the point of a shell that's not 100% waterproof and windproof unless you like your clothes Euro-tight and need the stretch.

You'd be surprised at how well it works in aerobic situations (not resort skiing). For years before modern technology, mountaineers used early forms of stretch-woven softshells by using tightly woven fabrics (no stretch). For example, some wool creations work quite well (can't remember what its called).

They'd still work quite well, except the public has been brainwashed into believing they actually need something fully waterproof/windproof in the mountains (only really true if you have to deal with long duration rain). For example, I rarely ever wear a hardshell when climbing mountains out here, even on cold days. I'm much more comfortable wearing a wind resistent windshirt (ie Patagonia Houdini). I don't even bring a hardshell most of the time, since you want to be out of the mountains by mid-day anyway to avoid lightning, and a windshirt can fend off rain well enough to get back to the car on shorter approaches.

[Dry]

.
2. It's definitely breathable: I used it as a mid-layer under a Patagonia shell, and after overheating for a while, the inside of the shell was noticeably wet while the softshell remained dry.
Note that I'm using it mostly as an insulating mid-layer instead of a traditional fleece, as it's warmer for less bulk: I don't really see the point of a shell that's not 100% waterproof and windproof unless you like your clothes Euro-tight and need the stretch.

I understand why you are using the soft shell that way but it is a really bad use of the fabric. They call it a soft shell for a reason. There are much better materials to use as a mid layer insulation.

Lin, You are right on with the wool connection. Schoeller hard faced stretch woolfabrics are still very effective outdoor fabrics. Only the weight is hard to beat. Dachstein sweaters were the original soft shells

[XXX-er]

The way I see it my soft shell IS the base layer to be worn when I am giving it and I want max breathing

I nevr wear a base layer on the bottoms and rarely on top unless its pretty fucking cold

what I really need both top & bottom are reaslly good pockets and a hood for the top which are often lacking in a cheaper shell

when i stop the puffy goes on pretty quick

[jono]

For $23 no one needs to get every last but of value from the thing to justify getting one. Spats, which one did you get specifically? Double Diamond or Kirkland? Hood? They change at least yearly and I think they've had more than one the last two years...sounds like it might be worth looking again. Thanks!

[Hugh Conway]

They'd still work quite well, except the public has been brainwashed into believing they actually need something fully waterproof/windproof in the mountains (only really true if you have to deal with long duration rain).

Hardshells (or more waterproof than softshells) are really nice if you are transitioning between cold and warm multiple times on a day with precipitation. Like if you are riding a mountain with a tram. Or just walking around in climates where it rains harder/more than the intermountain west (like most everywhere in the US). Woven softshells also take longer to dry.

Ventile cotton - tight woven cotton fabric w/o coatings or laminate - is much more than wool sweaters the first "soft shell". Climawool fabric's are ok but not much different than other synthetics.

[Lindahl]

Hardshells (or more waterproof than softshells) are really nice if you are transitioning between cold and warm multiple times on a day with precipitation. Like if you are riding a mountain with a tram. Or just walking around in climates where it rains harder/more than the intermountain west (like most everywhere in the US). Woven softshells also take longer to dry.

Right. If you're dealing with rain for a lot of the day, hardshells are the way to go. Though, if you're at a resort (you mention trams), I don't think stretch-wovens make much sense unless its sunny and quite warm (45+). They're more of a touring shell, imo. Perforated softshells, laminate softshells and hardshells are better resort choices most of the time.

[Snow Dog]

The answer is yes, no, maybe. With the global economy it has become exceedingly difficult to tell the difference between products because there are so many variables. Sometime the fabric used by say pattigucci as exactly the same as knock brands.

It's not just the knockoffs. Large retailers like Walmart will have clothing made just for them. So the cheaper Remington hunting clothing (for example) at Walmart looks exactly the same as the expensive gear at your favourite outdoor store but has a different model number and UPC and tags. Probably different insulation and waterproof membrane too.

[hop]

Aside from the times (like now) when it's been annoyingly wet, it's been annoyingly dry in the PNW so far. I've been using my softshells more often than not.

Of the two I have, the Polartec Powershield one vastly out-performs the one that (I think) is stretch-woven. I don't notice any breathability differences but the weather-resistance (wind especially) is much better. It's also lighter, more packable, and has a nicer feel/fit/finish.

[Lindahl]

Aside from the times (like now) when it's been annoyingly wet, it's been annoyingly dry in the PNW so far. I've been using my softshells more often than not.

Of the two I have, the Polartec Powershield one vastly out-performs the one that (I think) is stretch-woven. I don't notice any breathability differences but the weather-resistance (wind especially) is much better. It's also lighter, more packable, and has a nicer feel/fit/finish.

Lesser wind resistance is what I like about stretch wovens. I'd be overheating without a little bit of airflow. The PNW is a more temperate climate though.