Fuck. I-5 collapsed in WA

[PNWbrit]

I didn't realize the 520 has tolls now.

90 will soon too.

[DJSapp]

Would you say the proposed legislation is less, more, or equally as stupid as the DOT's failure to mark height and weight limits for bridges and then issue use permits for over sized vehicles to cross bridges that are too small?

Huh? I don't see how this accident was DOT's failure. Bridge clearances and load restrictions typically are not marked if they can handle the maximum legal load for size and weight. Some states mark clearances under 15', as some trucks cheat the legal height often enough to warrant it. This cuts down on costs for an ungodly amount of signage that isn't needed for 99.9% of traffic. In this case the load was over height (legal load height is 14'0") and struck a bridge at 15'7". The permitted route should have noted that the truck needed to be in the #1 lane when crossing this bridge, as it would have passed without incident. The question is, who screwed up, the pilot + truck driver, or DOT's permit restrictions.

[Hugh Conway]

What the fuck's the point of a pilot driver if the pilot driver doesn't actual hit shit before the truck?

[DJSapp]

What the fuck's the point of a pilot driver if the pilot driver doesn't actual hit shit before the truck?

Pilot is supposed to radio back any road issues, obstructions, etc. to the truck. The permit should have clearly stated a lane restriction for the bridge, so either: a. the pilot didn't do his job (thought it was a different bridge, wasn't paying attention to mile markers, etc.) or b. the permit didn't state a lane restriction.

A possible c. option is that the truck was boxed in and couldn't move over, but I doubt that. If the trucker was aware of impaired clearance and couldn't get into the correct lane, he would have stopped before crashing.

[AK47bp]

In WA the right lane's for passing, not cruising. Stay left, thats the law here (I think)

[PNWbrit]

Pilot is supposed to radio back any road issues, obstructions, etc. to the truck. The permit should have clearly stated a lane restriction for the bridge, so either: a. the pilot didn't do his job (thought it was a different bridge, wasn't paying attention to mile markers, etc.) or b. the permit didn't state a lane restriction.

A possible c. option is that the truck was boxed in and couldn't move over, but I doubt that. If the trucker was aware of impaired clearance and couldn't get into the correct lane, he would have stopped before crashing.

Do all oversized loads require a pilot car? Seems like you see plenty of them (apparently) without one.

This bridge got hit 20 something times previously/recently?

[DJSapp]

I do see a lot of oversize loads (I work in heavy construction). Typically they need a leader and follower, and they have specific roles to fill.

That said, bridges get hit all the time. Permits are expensive and enforcement can be... spotty. This leads to people who just stack stuff too high and don't measure. Even worse is when you get the permit and do everything right, but DOT doesn't warn you of a low bridge. It happens sometimes, but most of the time it's the non-permitted over-height that cause problems.

[GoldMember]

To clarify; as I understand it, the bridge was not adequately signed, the permit was issued without instruction to height relative to the load, and that bridge had been struck 22 times in the past year. Again, that's as I understand it and any other facts related to it aren't known to me at this point. If what I've understood is true, it seems negligent on the part of WSDOT to have not provided information that should be readily available to them. Just my opinion based on what I understand at this time.

PNWBrit - I90 too, eh? One more reason to not travel to the wet side, I guess.

[GoldMember]

I do see a lot of oversize loads (I work in heavy construction). Typically they need a leader and follower, and they have specific roles to fill.

That said, bridges get hit all the time. Permits are expensive and enforcement can be... spotty. This leads to people who just stack stuff too high and don't measure. Even worse is when you get the permit and do everything right, but DOT doesn't warn you of a low bridge. It happens sometimes, but most of the time it's the non-permitted over-height that cause problems.

According to news reports, this was a permitted haul.

[Hugh Conway]

Pilot is supposed to radio back any road issues, obstructions, etc. to the truck. The permit should have clearly stated a lane restriction for the bridge, so either: a. the pilot didn't do his job (thought it was a different bridge, wasn't paying attention to mile markers, etc.) or b. the permit didn't state a lane restriction.

err, this pilot truck had a big pylon sticking up the height of the load supposedly.

[GoldMember]

Found the permit for the load:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres...357/permit.pdf

WSDOT states on the permit:

Route OK - WSDOT does not guarantee height clearances

It would seem this falls on the trucker. However, it would also seem WSDOT could do a better job of providing information. NTSB and WSDOT are still investigating.

[DJSapp]

err, this pilot truck had a big pylon sticking up the height of the load supposedly.

Interesting, but explainable. The bridge was 15.6' at the edge of traveled way, arching upward. If the pylon was centered on the truck, it would have cleared. All it needed was 2" more.

Goldmember: good sleuthing on the permit. The blanket statement on 'WSDOT does not guarantee height clearances' is bullshit, and they should do a better job. CADOT has an online database for the interstates and main highways for height restrictions for the entire state. CA permits may still have the BS cover your ass language, but it's much easier to do you homework and find this kind of issue.

[Hugh Conway]

Interesting, but explainable. The bridge was 15.6' at the edge of traveled way, arching upward. If the pylon was centered on the truck, it would have cleared. All it needed was 2" more.

I'm aware of basic geometry.

Hersman: Washington State Patrol reported that pilot car had height pole, mounted in permenant bracket, on the front, right side of truck.

I'm not a super awesome construction expert, just seems pretty fucking retarded to make people have a pilot car with a height pole, then if somehow that pilot car paid by them fucks up - either in communication, not matching the load, or something else on them - blame the beauacrats because they didn't hold your hand enough for you.

[GoldMember]

All that's needed for these height issues is an infrared beam at clearance height a couple hundred of yards before the bridge. If your load breaks the beam, warning flashers start blasting away. It isn't that difficult or expensive and with the number of hits that bridge took, you'd think someone would've figured it out by now. That's probably why the Senator felt he had to write a bill; WSDOT couldn't seem to figure it out on their own.

[toast2266]

All that's needed for these height issues is an infrared beam at clearance height a couple hundred of yards before the bridge. If your load breaks the beam, warning flashers start blasting away. It isn't that difficult or expensive and with the number of hits that bridge took, you'd think someone would've figured it out by now. That's probably why the Senator felt he had to write a bill; WSDOT couldn't seem to figure it out on their own.

Did this already get posted?

[spook]

the pilot and the driver were probably high on his personal stash of marijuana

[GoldMember]

Did this already get posted?

Haven't seen it but, yeah, that would be a cool solution! However, to plumb it, wire it, etc, probably more money than necessary for what's needed. Funny that it's a legal requirement for all new garage doors to have the light beam sensor and stop apparatus but for some reason, we can't seem to find a way to stop oversized loads from wiping out our key infrastructure.

In Spokane, we have some low clearance RR bridges downtown that invariably get some truck driver with a standard height trailer stuck about once a year. Seems kind of lame that we can't get this figured out.

[GeezerSteve]

On the gas tax, I agree there too. However, in exchange for high gas taxes, we don't have toll roads (common throughout the country) and we pay for ferries that would otherwise have to be very expensive bridges, that apparently tend to fall down.

And, of course, WA does not have an income tax. WA's regressive taxation scheme is terrible and the B&O tax is the worst of it. No easy way out because when WA became a state the timber barons pushed a state constitutional provision that strongly favors regressive taxation. Anyway, it's silly to assume away lack of revenue as contributing to WA's highway infrastructure problem. But for Tim Horseass Eyman's initiatives there's a good chance that this bridge would have been replaced years ago.

[GoldMember]

Big Steve - If I'm not mistaken, WA transportation funding is stand alone and wouldn't be allowed to partake in a state income tax, regardless. And say what you want about the wrong of not having an income tax, it's been presented to the voters in different forms at different times over the past forty years and has lost at the polls. The voters have determined they don't want an income tax. And as for the Eyman initiatives, I agree. I don't like his initiatives but I also don't like the initiative process in general. We elect officials to be fully informed and deliberative in the process of law-making and having decisions made by an less informed public goes against the principle of representative government. But I digress.

Intermingling of funds is discouraged in the funding system. Hence, there is an ongoing debate in Olympia as we speak regarding the coming biennial budget with a separate debate over a transportation bill and its funding source. Right now, the House is pointed toward a graduated gas tax increase starting at an added 5% plus another 3% in a year and an additional 2% the following year, or something like that. The Senate is resisting the gas tax increase and looking at other options.

So, your comment that the Eyman initiatives are what's leading to the bridge failure is disconnected, so far as I can tell from the process.

[grskier]

Transportation funding is changing nation wide with the passage of MAP-21. Has some progressive penalties if asset management goals are not met.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

...And say what you want about the wrong of not having an income tax, it's been presented to the voters in different forms at different times over the past forty years and has lost at the polls. ...

During the time I've been voting (since 1986) I have not seen any proposal to institute an income tax AND eliminate the sales tax. If that was proposed I'd vote for it, but no way am I giving the legislature the power to stick it to me both coming and going. Income tax OR sales tax, not both.

[PNWbrit]

no way am I giving the legislature the power to stick it to me both coming and going. Income tax OR sales tax, not both.

Is that really such a big deal?



I'm sure Eyman would initiative the shit out of a state income tax anyway.

[GeezerSteve]

So, your comment that the Eyman initiatives are what's leading to the bridge failure is disconnected, so far as I can tell from the process.

Well, I didn't quite say that.

What do you mean "stand alone?" Car tab fees are part of WSDOT's funding. See http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Finance/FinanceExplained.htm Car tab revenue has been slashed as a result of Horseass Eyman's initiatives. But for those initiatives, of course WA would have had more money to replace obsolete infrastructure, and it's not a big leap to suggest that the extra money might have been used to replace this bridge. Yeah, I know it's speculation and that's why I said "a good chance," and neither can you prove that revenue from status quo ante car tab revenue would not have been used to fix this bridge. Throw in the decrease in fuel tax revenue resulting from more fuel efficient cars and the lack of legislative will to do anything about it, and it's no wonder that WA has 366 structurally deficient bridges and 1,693 functionally obsolete bridges. Bridges don't fix themselves.

My comments re the lack of income tax is my standard response to the wah wah I want more government services but I don't want to pay any taxes standard palaver.

[GeezerSteve]

Thanks for posting that chart, Brit. More confirmation that WA is the most regressively taxed state in the U.S.

I still can't figure out why working people rejected an income tax imposed only on households with income >$400,000. Is Grover Norquist's propaganda that effective?

It's gonna get worse when the courts start to enforce the McCleary decision.

[PNWbrit]

It's gonna get worse when the courts start to enforce the McCleary decision.

We should put toll gates at school gates.