Federal Judge in Idaho Rules Against USFS in OSV (aka Sleds) Case

[LightRanger]

Ski related, although it could probably just as easily go in Political Asshattery.

BOISE, Idaho — A federal judge in Idaho ruled the U.S. Forest Service broke the law by not crafting rules to govern snowmobile travel, a victory for powder-loving backcountry ski enthusiasts.

U.S. District Judge Ronald Bush wrote that the Forest Service must draw up regulations designating areas of use and non-use by all off-road vehicles, including snowmobiles, on public lands.

The Idaho-based Winter Wildlands Alliance argued the agency’s failure to do so was leading to conflicts between snowmobiles and backcountry skiers.

Alliance director Mark Menlove said Monday he’s very pleased with the ruling.

Bush ordered the Forest Service to write a new rule consistent with the executive order within 180 days.

The Forest Service had argued it only had to draw up rules governing where off-road vehicles could drive spring, summer and fall.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifest...8f1_story.html

Challenge was based on the Administrative Procedure Act and two different Executive Orders governing OHVs. Should be interesting to see if they appeal.

[hick]

Fuck Winter Wildlands Alliance. They should try pulling a throttle sometime, then they would realize it's fun! I guess I'll ride while I can, the writing is on the wall. The happy fun machine probably won't be legal anywhere in 10-15 years.

[AdironRider]

More selfishness on the BC community's part.

Literally everywhere I go, its the BC skiers who have their panties in the largest wad. Everything and everyone is encroaching on their "church" or some bullshit.

[Shadam]

coming form a skinning background and now a total sledneck I see both sides of the arguement.
1 of the biggest probs is the destinction between sled/skiing and sleding. its a grey area that will always be an issue. axcess v's playground.
Here in Golden B.C. quartz creek is the main snowmobile area and it cost $20 per day per sled. but some locals think that certain areas including 2 whole bowls are ski/snowboard terrain.
Fark that !!! go ski the national park that boarders quartz creek!

but wot happens when they grant a "passage of travel" thru an area. Everyone knows that sledders are not going to drive thru virgin snow without marking the shit out of it thus creating conflict. as has happened at thunder meadows cabin in fernie.
We sledders are our own worst enemy, and so many leave far too much trash and sled debri where ever they like.
we all know catskiiing tenures have been ruined by sledders.

and there aint no peace and serenity when my 1000cc 2stroke brappz into an area ...
I guess europe was smart to keep sleds out ...

[Chugachjed]

More selfishness on the BC community's part.

Literally everywhere I go, its the BC skiers who have their panties in the largest wad. Everything and everyone is encroaching on their "church" or some bullshit.

I don't always agree with adironrider but when I do it's about pretentious backcountry skiers. It's the same with hikers and bicycles.

[Hugh Conway]

Literally everywhere I go

How many places do you go?

[BFD]

The happy fun machine probably won't be legal anywhere in 10-15 years.

we can only hope!
This issue will be so divisive it will take 10 years just to come up with a plan.

[creaky fossil]

Since Federal judges rarely publicly contradict the USFS, and generally don't do so in states or Districts where the USFS does a lot of ...errr, ahhh... "work," this decision is significant. Current business/government climate is strongly pro-Federal, this is a real maverick move. Judge could have forced USFS's hand outside of ruling against USFS, USFS could have yielded. Why the ruling?

Interesting.

Or maybe just mishandling by USFS and the US Attys assigned, but that's not really commonplace at the Fed level.

[Buster Highmen]

How many places do you go?

Is it indicative that he's always with himself?

[snapt]

Damn, did a bunch of touring last week and a brapper even gave me a lift. Will be interesting to see how this pans out.

[GoldMember]

A couple of weekends ago, touring on private land that's posted as no snowmobiles, there were five guys ripping the shit out of what's generally a BC ski playland. Aside from being noisy, they ripped the crap out of what little untracked ski terrain was available. This was all of about a mile away from what is 'biler's normal terrain. Generally, I don't care if they're riding out back but riding in posted terrain and ripping up what's normally ski terrain puts a bad taste in my mouth. So yes, sledders can be their own worst enemy. But I also agree that many BC skiers, looking for 'tranquility' are a tad over the top, too. Can't we all just get along? (Ha!)

[ak_powder_monkey]

wait I'm confused, this area is open to ATVs and the like and not snowmachines?

Snowmachiners are their own worst enemies, the number of times I've heard "I'm gonna make this as loud as possible to piss off the greenies"

yeah it does piss us off and makes us want to outlaw your bullshit in the mountains. Quiet places are important. But clearly if its open to ATVs which are not as loud but destructive as hell, it should be open to snowmachines.

[tommyvee]

More selfishness on the BC community's part.
Literally everywhere I go, its the BC skiers who have their panties in the largest wad. Everything and everyone is encroaching on their "church" or some bullshit.

Check your own crotch, you sound pretty wadded up to me.
Poor little bilers cannot go everywhere anytime, and the pathetic wails of horror ring out.
Just because the Forest Service is legally obligated to make a plan to share a public resource, the fear-mongers shriek out "The happy fun machine probably won't be legal anywhere in 10-15 years."

Why should any one user group get to dominate and impact all public lands with no defined areas for other user groups?
Does not matter what group, everybody needs to learn to share public lands (and no, spewing exhaust and noise in other user's faces, and tracking up miles of snow does not count as sharing).

Clearly you live on another planet, because here on planet Earth beelers go pretty much anywhere they want, anytime they want. Cannot count the number of beeler tracks I have seen in wilderness areas and other closed zones, since in the whole state of Colorado there are only a few backcountry rangers enforcing access laws, and beelers violate closures with impunity. Finding valleys that do not have a background soundtrack of 2-stroke whine in the distance is rare. So keep adding your whine to the chorus but do not expect much sympathy from the general public.

[hick]

wait I'm confused, this area is open to ATVs and the like and not snowmachines?

Snowmachiners are their own worst enemies, the number of times I've heard "I'm gonna make this as loud as possible to piss off the greenies"

yeah it does piss us off and makes us want to outlaw your bullshit in the mountains. Quiet places are important. But clearly if its open to ATVs which are not as loud but destructive as hell, it should be open to snowmachines.

That is the funny thing about AK, millions of acres of quiet places but you have to go farther to get there. This usually means the use of a sled, a plane or a heli to get way back. I have no problem giviing up close areas, I can get much further, faster. Problem is that the remote places around where I live are the first to get shut down to sleds. Oh well. I agree though, when I tour I usually don't want to hear a sled. Easy fix, I tour in designated wilderness. That way I don't even run into backcountry skiers or wildernuts .

[garyfromterrace]

coming form a skinning background and now a total sledneck I see both sides of the arguement.
1 of the biggest probs is the destinction between sled/skiing and sleding. its a grey area that will always be an issue. axcess v's playground.
Here in Golden B.C. quartz creek is the main snowmobile area and it cost $20 per day per sled. but some locals think that certain areas including 2 whole bowls are ski/snowboard terrain.
Fark that !!! go ski the national park that boarders quartz creek!

but wot happens when they grant a "passage of travel" thru an area. Everyone knows that sledders are not going to drive thru virgin snow without marking the shit out of it thus creating conflict. as has happened at thunder meadows cabin in fernie.
We sledders are our own worst enemy, and so many leave far too much trash and sled debri where ever they like.
we all know catskiiing tenures have been ruined by sledders.

and there aint no peace and serenity when my 1000cc 2stroke brappz into an area ...
I guess europe was smart to keep sleds out ...

FKNA. Thanks for the honest assessment Shadam. And I think you've got more cred commenting on the post than most here given your background. I was pretty damn anti-sled coming from Tod Mtn (sunpeaks) where the touring was limited to say the least, and slednecks would trash the goods (even in the "non-motorized" areas out back) in minutes. This all changed when i moved to Terrace where there's very little (to no) conflict. Many tourers have sleds for access. Everybody gets along because there's so much fucking room.

Having said that, where most of you live there's not room for everyone and there has to be designated areas. Problem is enforcement. There's not enough money out there to adequately patrol the designated non-motorized areas and the back country skier ends up having his experience compromised.

I'm not against sleds in general, I've had some great trips (and runs) using sleds for access. I'm against sleds (and sled necks) who don't play by the rules, leave shit all over the place and are not respectful of non-motorized users.

Good luck down there.

[hick]

Check your own crotch, you sound pretty wadded up to me.
Poor little bilers cannot go everywhere anytime, and the pathetic wails of horror ring out.
Just because the Forest Service is legally obligated to make a plan to share a public resource, the fear-mongers shriek out "The happy fun machine probably won't be legal anywhere in 10-15 years."

Clearly you live on another planet, because here on planet Earth beelers go pretty much anywhere they want, anytime they want. Cannot count the number of beeler tracks I have seen in wilderness areas and other closed zones, since in the whole state of Colorado there are only a few backcountry rangers enforcing access laws, and beelers violate closures with impunity. Finding valleys that do not have a background soundtrack of 2-stroke whine in the distance is rare. So keep adding your whine to the chorus but do not expect much sympathy from the general public.

Hardly fear mongering where I live. I've seen a lot of good areas closed in the last decade. That is not about to stop. But CO is quite different than MT. More people, more problems. I actually feel sorry for land managers, they have an impossible job, no one (including myself), will ever be happy with their decisions. I also have a hard time believing you can't get away from sleds in CO (seriouos question)? I've only toured in CO once, so I have no idea.

[Buster Highmen]

There are so many of those obnoxious BC skiers who intentionally file these complaints just to piss off the slednecks, right?

And they constantly trash the poor sledneckers prime terrain by whining on about holistic gluten free energy when a man is just trying to get a decent brap going in between beers.

After all this country wasn't founded to grant some weedy, knicker sporting, klister sucking remnant of Allen Ginsbergs Whirling Dervish Camping Trip Gone Wrong the right to get all bom shiva omsterizational when there's good petroleum to burn, right? The Commons Crisis was due to inadequate amount of bitters.

[tommyvee]

Hardly fear mongering where I live. I've seen a lot of good areas closed in the last decade. That is not about to stop. But CO is quite different than MT. More people, more problems. I actually feel sorry for land managers, they have an impossible job, no one (including myself), will ever be happy with their decisions. I also have a hard time believing you can't get away from sleds in CO (seriouos question)? I've only toured in CO once, so I have no idea.

Getting away from sleds in CO is not hard, much of the Front Range & Rocky Mountain National Park has a combination of rocky terrain and closures that keeps snowmobilers away. Mostly I ski wind-blasted Front Range snow far from any snowmobiles.

But in the decades that I have skiied in Colorado, areas that were traditionally backcountry ski zones (like Jones Pass, Vail Pass, etc.) have become so snowmobile dominated that I would no longer choose to tour in those areas anymore, even if the snow is better. And the closures around Colorado's backcountry hut systems are routinely violated by snowmobilers. Near the Polar Star Inn hut, there is a 10 foot wide packed snowmobile trail heading into the Holy Cross Wilderness right in front of the closure sign, I just think there is no USFS manpower available to enforce those remote wilderness boundaries.

I'm not adamantly opposed to snowmobiles, I have appreciated packed trails, rides and tows sometimes too. But I think the policy of designated areas is only common sense, because the noise, smell, and snow-smashing effects of snowmobiles are exactly what most people tour to avoid. So I think forcing the USFS to have a snowmobile travel policy serves the public interest and the howls of dismay are just the usual histrionic bullshit, and I am enjoying laughing at their hysteria, while they claim somebody else's panties are wadded. Irony rules the universe.

[hick]

Thanks for the reply tommyvee. Always curious what it is like outside my own little bubble. We have it good here in MT for sure. Such a guilty pleasure for myself, but damn is it fun!

[Blurred]

But in the decades that I have skiied in Colorado, areas that were traditionally backcountry ski zones (like Jones Pass, Vail Pass, etc.) have become so snowmobile dominated that I would no longer choose to tour in those areas anymore, even if the snow is better.

Really? What part of Vail Pass is a traditional "backcountry ski zone" now dominated by sleds? Machine Gun Ridge? Hahaha, that's a sled closure too. Only things worth skiing at Vail Pass in the "snowmobile area" is Black Lakes, Utopia, and North Shore....none of which have sleds in them. Next time try the east side of I-70 at Vail Pass Up the Uneva side where bc skiers "in the know" go. Not a single sled rides up there.

The problem is people like yourself who ski Vail Pass like once a year, live 2 hours away and think they're entitled to designate an area as they wish which only effects locals who use it daily.
Why don't "BC skiers" like yourself tour into the Gore or places like that? You won't see a sled, person or track for days.
Only gapes "tour" on Vail Pass west of i-70.

[Conundrum]

Full disclosure...I tour, have owned sleds, and volunteer on a board for a conservation org that is not WWA.

I have really mixed feelings here. I know the folks at Winter Wildlands Alliance. I've asked them why every fund raising movie they show has some sort of access provided by fossil fuels including cars, cats, helos, planes, and OMG...sleds. They don't really have a good answer. I know some of the people that volunteer there and I've seen them get tows.

The biggest issue is that the closest areas to tour by Boise are the same areas sleds run rampant. But, it is a sled area. The terrain and snow are marginal but it's only an hour away from town. If you want to drive 2-3 hours, plenty of wilderness areas to tour and sled access is the norm but people respect the boundaries.

There isn't the budget for enforcement here. This lawsuit really isn't going to accomplish much. If people want to tour away from sleds, they'll either need to drive or skin a little further. The main area in question for WWA requires an extra hour of approach on skins and you'll never see another sled but that's not "easy". The WWA constituents want to be able to snow shoe and meadow skip from their cars without the noise of sleds. Seriously, they are expecting a serene, wild experience a mile from their cars, an hour from 600,000 people. Plus, the sledneckers around here have big trucks and trailers and parking a Prius in those parking lots can be a little intimidating.

I do like seeing a group hold the government to the rules that they themselves established.

My opinion...do what a couple groups did a couple hours northeast of here. Have the user groups get together over a few maps and a few beers and see what people would be happy with. Some of the best skiing and best sledding in the state was formed by some people hanging out together and coming up with some ideas.

[tommyvee]

Really? What part of Vail Pass is a traditional "backcountry ski zone" now dominated by sleds? Machine Gun Ridge? Hahaha, that's a sled closure too. Only things worth skiing at Vail Pass in the "snowmobile area" is Black Lakes, Utopia, and North Shore....none of which have sleds in them. Next time try the east side of I-70 at Vail Pass Up the Uneva side where bc skiers "in the know" go. Not a single sled rides up there.
The problem is people like yourself who ski Vail Pass like once a year, live 2 hours away and think they're entitled to designate an area as they wish which only effects locals who use it daily.
Why don't "BC skiers" like yourself tour into the Gore or places like that? You won't see a sled, person or track for days.
Only gapes "tour" on Vail Pass west of i-70.

I don't consider myself "entitled to designate an area as they wish", and I really don't know the current management details around Vail Pass, like I said I don't bother to ski there any more (except accessing huts sometimes). I find plenty of other appealing places to ski that don't have an interstate running thru the valley, adding traffic noise to snowmobile whine. Just the Vail pass winter parking lot scene alone is enough to make a "sensitive Boulderite" like me want to be somewhere else, even before adding a requirement to dodge around sleds to ski the closures. Have spent plenty of time in the Gore and will be there again this spring.
So I am not arguing that the details of Colorado's designated use areas are all perfectly appropriate, just that designated use areas and a snowmobile travel policy (besides "go anywhere, anytime") makes sense. Apparently a Federal Judge agrees with me, and his opinion counts a lot more than mine does. And anybody honest knows that Colorado snowmobilers violate closures routinely, probably a small fraction of the user group with a disproportionately big impact.

Because I am an old fart, my view of what is "worth skiing" dates from the days when we shuffled around in leather boots on skinny skis in wool pants. And sometimes I still enjoy a stroll on skis around the meadows today, so pretty much any quiet place in the woods can be "worth skiing" if you are in a meadow wandering mood. Back in the day, we used to wander around Vail Pass without much concern about runs, or lines, or turns and that was the "traditional backcountry skiing" I was referring too. The world has changed for better and for worse since those days (when Vail Pass was a 2 lane road and nobody had a snowmobile). Since the world has changed, USFS management has had to change too, first in Colorado, and now in Montana. And plenty of the changes are good, I can hardly believe the gear we used to ski on, looks like something out of a museum (as I probably do too, but luckily my blurred vision protects me from the truth).

[Blurred]

I don't consider myself "entitled to designate an area as they wish", and I really don't know the current management details around Vail Pass, like I said I don't bother to ski there any more (except accessing huts sometimes). I find plenty of other appealing places to ski that don't have an interstate running thru the valley, adding traffic noise to snowmobile whine. Just the Vail pass winter parking lot scene alone is enough to make a "sensitive Boulderite" like me want to be somewhere else, even before adding a requirement to dodge around sleds to ski the closures. Have spent plenty of time in the Gore and will be there again this spring.
So I am not arguing that the details of Colorado's designated use areas are all perfectly appropriate, just that designated use areas and a snowmobile travel policy (besides "go anywhere, anytime") makes sense. Apparently a Federal Judge agrees with me, and his opinion counts a lot more than mine does. And anybody honest knows that Colorado snowmobilers violate closures routinely, probably a small fraction of the user group with a disproportionately big impact.

There is huge amounts of area in Colorado designated as wilderness/no snowmobiling areas as it is now.
I think you're more concerned with enforcing the rules of the areas we already have which is fine by me. The reality is though, so few people go into those areas as it is now, the forest service would rather harass and ticket high snowmobile density areas (like Vail Pass)as that is where the $$$$ is at.

[Conundrum]

So I am not arguing that the details of Colorado's designated use areas are all perfectly appropriate, just that designated use areas and a snowmobile travel policy (besides "go anywhere, anytime") makes sense. Apparently a Federal Judge agrees with me, and his opinion counts a lot more than mine does.

A Federal Judge isn't saying that travel policies makes sense. I'm guessing the judge probably doesn't have an opinion on BC skiers vs. sledneckers.

A Federal Judge is saying that the USFS was supposed to develop a travel plan via their own rules and they didn't so they should. That's why WWA won. They pointed out a process wasn't be followed and that helps their cause.

[Hugh Conway]

There isn't the budget for enforcement here. This lawsuit really isn't going to accomplish much. If people want to tour away from sleds, they'll either need to drive or skin a little further. The main area in question for WWA requires an extra hour of approach on skins and you'll never see another sled but that's not "easy". The WWA constituents want to be able to snow shoe and meadow skip from their cars without the noise of sleds. Seriously, they are expecting a serene, wild experience a mile from their cars, an hour from 600,000 people. Plus, the sledneckers around here have big trucks and trailers and parking a Prius in those parking lots can be a little intimidating.

If you want people to get off the couch and outside shouldn't it be "easy"? On a practical level isn't it easier to jam 1000 snowshoeing douches into a given space than 1000 slednecks? Dunno, I think of it like fishing where unless there's serious restrictions of gear/lures/limits anything near a population of people will get nuked and cease being useful for anything (and absent enforcement often even then).