2003 Subaru Outback: How Screwed am I?

[marcusling]

Never buy a motor that comes from Japan. They dont get to drive them beyond 30000miles and because of this, most dont even bother to change the oil. Know where your Subie motor comes from. Mine came from portland after a rear end collision/total. Carfaxed the vehicle to get records, and am good to go.

[Bunion 2020]

Any vehicle has stories of going 200k+, I know a guy who still drives a Chevette with 300k plus.

The question is, how much money did it cost to get there? I notice you tend to buy beaters, beat them, then sell for peanuts. Thats cool and all, but I grew up with that guy as my Dad, and spent more than a few hours sitting by the side of the road, because, even as you admit, they eventually go boom and you sell them for scrap ($500).

Also, not many people really want to drive 1500 dollar beaters if they have the choice. But I agree different strokes for different folks. I tend to fall more into the mindset of enjoying my time behind the wheel. Others just want something for A - B.

I commute 100 miles a day in the winter on an icy dark canyon road.

See MT Hwy 191, Bozeman to Big Sky. I have a nice truck that is 10 years old with less than 100K on it because I don't drive it to work.

As I said in my other post, the Subie I am driving isn't a beater, it handles well on shitty snowy icy roads, has sufficient power to climb from the Meadow to the Mountain, and what is amazing (as a 3 time Subie owner) all the switches, heaters and vents, signals and the rest still work.

I am not a Subie fanatic and will probably buy an older Toyota or Honda for my next canyon bullet.

But 95 Legacy Outbacks were the probably the height of Subies.

I bought the current one for the princely sum of 2100.00 and can probably get that or slightly less for it now. IRS figures the cost of operation of a vehicle at .55 p/mile. So far I have put around 27K on it. Only things I have put in it are gasoline and oil/filters (yep do em myself every 3K+-)

You do the math.

[Beaver]

Change the oil, dump 6 eggs in the rad, drive it to the dealer and trade it in. The eggs will cook and plug the leaks in your gasket temporarily so it looks good with a cursory inspection.

No love here for subies, I've heard to many stories like yours. That and transmission troubles. I'm a toyota guy, 4 Corollas totalling over 1 300 000 km and never left on the side of the road, only brakes, mufflers, tires, 1 rad, 1 thermostat, 1 clutch, oil and gas.

[jgb@etree]

We spent the money on the Subaru, not the Jeep. Knock on wood, the Jeep is running fine. I've had it for over ten years without too many problems.

I'm pretty sure that is the point he was trying to make. Perhaps it's time to grab another Jeep?

[bagtagley]

No love here for subies, I've heard to many stories like yours. That and transmission troubles. I'm a toyota guy, 4 Corollas totalling over 1 300 000 km and never left on the side of the road, only brakes, mufflers, tires, 1 rad, 1 thermostat, 1 clutch, oil and gas.

Drove an '85 Corolla lift-back in high school. Thing was a steaming pile of shit. Barely limped its way past 100K miles. Buddy had the same model year Corolla in a sedan, and had to swap the engine and then the tranny. Finally sold it and bought an Audi that lasted well into 200K miles. Go figure. My Subaru experience is similar to your Toyota experience. My next car will probably be a VW because, outside of quirky shit, I've had great luck with them as well.

TGR is full of people that live in places that are full of Subarus. Of course some of them are going to take a shit, particularly in ski towns where young ski bums are beating the shit out of whatever they're driving. </ General statement not directed at Beaver >

[montanaskier]

who is you mechanic in the valley?

[nugblaster]

PM David Puddy, only honest mechanic in the city.

[The Reverend Floater]

Just my $.02 on the matter. I know enough about motors and have worked on enough at this point to know one thing: Finding a good mechanic in a mountain town is very, very tough. Once you find him, expect to pay a little more and treat him right. I bring my dude sunglasses or beer. He takes very good care of my rigs and does "little extras" that go a long way.

[powdork]

replace the radiator (its easy and theyre cheap). see what happens. subies from the 2000-2004 models had undersized radiators that tend to fail but i've never heard of them causing further problems unless you actually drove it while it was over heating until it died.


and this is mine, half way to utah and then i'll drive back. worried it'll make it? not even a little.

[jp13]

Im no subie lover but they have served us right. My 07 legacy has had zero issues but it only has 67k. The 06 my wife had no zero issues until we traded it at about 85K.

But, Im moving back West where my commute will be 35 miles each way with 95% interstate driving. Thinking about cashing in on my legacy, but for what?

I want good performance driving to and from ski resorts, good mileage, AWD, cheaper repairs (nothing european), without spending $28K+.

Do I have any options other than subies? Honda CRV?

[El Chupacabra]

Im no subie lover but they have served us right. My 07 legacy has had zero issues but it only has 67k. The 06 my wife had no zero issues until we traded it at about 85K.

But, Im moving back West where my commute will be 35 miles each way with 95% interstate driving. Thinking about cashing in on my legacy, but for what?

I want good performance driving to and from ski resorts, good mileage, AWD, cheaper repairs (nothing european), without spending $28K+.

Do I have any options other than subies? Honda CRV?

Go drive the Mazda CX-5 - it handles great. Much nicer all around than the Honda CR-V, which was disappointing and mediocre.

I didn't drive the Kia Sorento, but if you wanted something larger like it, it seemed very nice sitting in one. Price is upper $20k.

[cinnepa]

man i wish Ford would make their focus AWD.

[mrburns]

who is you mechanic in the valley?

I'd rather not bash anyone on a public forum as I can't say for sure that he is at fault. If my skis had been mismounted it would be different story, but that is for a different thread. This guy has a good rep in the Valley and without knowing for sure, I don't want to be the guy going around bashing, it's a small town. If you really want to know send me a PM. No problem with sharing info that way.

The car is gone, sold it for $1500 cash, and and the guy towed it away. We are going to Denver on Saturday to look at CR-V's.

[freshie247]

[QUOTE=Chainsaw_Willie;3928448]

The 2.2L is a very reliable workhorse of an engine that should easily run over 200K with no problems.
QUOTE]

So they say.I've owned one 1.8L,& three 2.2L subies. I took excellent care of my last 2.2.At 150,000miles, engine light came on,prob with cyl #1 .The Subie dealer said I needed a full valve job.$2100 later, the engine ate a qt of oil every 200 or so miles,& then engine light came on again & same prob with Cyl #1.Then they said it was the exhaust valve guide & wanted another $1100.I said no that's the top of the engine & it is covered.They backed down & agreed to pay labor,I had to buy a new head.Then they said it wasn't the EVG,my short block was roasted & I have to come up with $2500 for a new short block & head. The 1-1,000,000 failure followed by another one in a 1,000,000 failure.NICE!

[jp13]

Go drive the Mazda CX-5 - it handles great. Much nicer all around than the Honda CR-V, which was disappointing and mediocre.

I didn't drive the Kia Sorento, but if you wanted something larger like it, it seemed very nice sitting in one. Price is upper $20k.

My wife has the CX9 and "zoom zoom" is actually legit. Fun car to drive compared to others in the same class. I will check out the CX5.

[PNWbrit]

Never buy a motor that comes from Japan. They dont get to drive them beyond 30000miles.

Isn't this a now dis-proven urban legend?

[blender]

So many Subaru threads, so I just picked this one to bump.

Just had my 01 Legacy (2.5 NA) in for regular service at 174,000km. Was told that there is a small head gasket leak, but not to worry for the immediate, but should get it fixed before summer and keep a close eye on the coolant and oil in the meantime.
I had the timing belt and water pump replaced 5k ago, so one big ticket job recently done. Everything else on the car is tip top, so should I just man up and get the head gaskets and heads done (2200-2500 as quoted) or keep the money in hand and start shopping for a new ride?
Collective wisdom appreciated.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

Very subjective question.

First - that's a very expensive head gasket job. Shop around, if the only problem is the gasket then there's no reason to "fix" anything else and you should be able to get the work done wayyyyy cheaper than that.

Second - what else can you buy for the cost of the repair + what you could sell the vehicle for right now?

Third - what do you want vs. what do you need?

Answer those questions and you should be able to figure out what works for you.

[powdork]

I guess this pretty much sums it up..

Thanks for all of the responses, we had pretty much decided to go ahead and get rid of it, I guess I just needed someone to tell me that we are doing the right thing. Now I just wish we had gotten rid of it $3000 and 15 months ago.

Why all the love on here for Subaru's? My mechanic says they are junk, but it seems like every other car I see on the road is a Suby. I was thinking about getting a Forester as my Jeep is getting old and beat up, but after this experience, it looks like it's back to saving for a Taco.

your mechanic says they are junk because he just fucked you out of three grand and doesn't want to take the blame. keep the subie and ditch your mechanic, get the head gaskets done and do the radiator yourself, its easy and cheap.
is the guy willing to give you $1500 for it a mechanic? i know several that salivate over people getting rid of subies with head gasket issues because they know.



edit- SCORE

[jamal]

As someone who has only ever owned subarus and worked on them full time for years there are definitely some things that piss me off. Headgaskets on n/a cars being #1. Those fucking assholes blamed it all on poor service and not using "subaru official coolant conditioner," which is just a bottle of radiator stop leak with a subaru sticker, for years when the problem was headgasket itself. The replacement for the phase 1 2.5 is multi layer steel, the the turbos all use mls gaskets, and in 2010 they finally decided to use them in the n/a cars too. But from 00-09, that shit is going to start leaking even if you've already had them replaced at the dealer. And now they have been putting shitty pistons in the turbo cars for like 8 years and blaming cracked ringlands on abuse. And then there's the whole oil pickup thing, where they just randomly crack and destroy your engine.

Other than all that stuff they're not so bad. I replaced the headgaskets in my current car right after I bought it, but used the revised mls gaskets so I don't have to worry about it again. If you have an 00-09 n/a 2.5, there are no revised mls gaskets, but you can use the ones for an STI and they will last forever. Part number is 11044AA642.

[k2skier112]

As someone who has only ever owned subarus and worked on them full time for years there are definitely some things that piss me off. Headgaskets on n/a cars being #1. Those fucking assholes blamed it all on poor service and not using "subaru official coolant conditioner," which is just a bottle of radiator stop leak with a subaru sticker, for years when the problem was headgasket itself. The replacement for the phase 1 2.5 is multi layer steel, the the turbos all use mls gaskets, and in 2010 they finally decided to use them in the n/a cars too. But from 00-09, that shit is going to start leaking even if you've already had them replaced at the dealer. And now they have been putting shitty pistons in the turbo cars for like 8 years and blaming cracked ringlands on abuse. And then there's the whole oil pickup thing, where they just randomly crack and destroy your engine.

Other than all that stuff they're not so bad. I replaced the headgaskets in my current car right after I bought it, but used the revised mls gaskets so I don't have to worry about it again. If you have an 00-09 n/a 2.5, there are no revised mls gaskets, but you can use the ones for an STI and they will last forever. Part number is 11044AA642.

We've had some erratic idling issues with out 2005 2.5L Outback, 72,000. Will hesd gaskets cause this? Normal head gasket failure is consuming coolant; any other issues one might see?

Another question, I've had a noise that I can't make go away on my 1995 2.0L Legacy wagon, 177,000. Sounds like a ball bearing going out. Does Subaru use a ball bearing in their 5 speed manual tail shaft? PS- I just replaced the drive line that had 2 crosses bad, and all 4 wheel bearings, and all 4 half shafts, plus had new bearings (not needed but it was apart...) in the rear diff. Luckily I too am a mechanic and did all this my self except the Rear diff bearings.

[jamal]

Maybe I should start a subaru tech support thread.

Headgaskets won't cause that unless things have gone really bad and you would see coolant consumption and external leaks first. I would first check the intake and pcv lines to make sure you don't have a small vacuum leak somewhere. Spark plugs are due at 60k so if those are original that could be your problem. Does it throw a check engine light or is there a stored code?

Yes, the bearings on the transfer gears in the transmission do wear out. They are not lubricated quite as well as the rest of the transmission. Pretty easy to change- you just pull off the tail housing with the trans in the car.

[k2skier112]

Maybe I should start a subaru tech support thread.

Headgaskets won't cause that unless things have gone really bad and you would see coolant consumption and external leaks first. I would first check the intake and pcv lines to make sure you don't have a small vacuum leak somewhere. Spark plugs are due at 60k so if those are original that could be your problem. Does it throw a check engine light or is there a stored code?

Yes, the bearings on the transfer gears in the transmission do wear out. They are not lubricated quite as well as the rest of the transmission. Pretty easy to change- you just pull off the tail housing with the trans in the car.

Plugs were done at 45,000-50,000. It only drops RPM's very occasionally at idle, no other running issues, not on a regular basis like a vacuum leak would (should). I also cleaned the MAFS, to no avail. No light on, and nothing showed up on a scan.

I started using using Lucas fuel system cleaner with Startron enzyme fuel stabilizer and have seen a slight improvement.

[blender]

Thanks for the support.

Regarding the price for the head gasket job, it is including taxes and is supposed to be high-end estimate and it includes getting the heads machined. Seemed high to me too. The shop is the Subaru dealer here in town and I've never been too impressed with their customer service, but the tech's seem to be fine as all the work I've had done has been good.

In any case, my basic question is just a general one about how this particular motor tends to decline. Is it time to trade in for something newer and use the 2k+ for that or should I expect years of good service after the head gasket job?

Obviously, the answer is subjective, but I'm just looking for general opinions and anecdotes.

[jamal]

If they are doing headwork they had better do a lot more than just deck them. Charging you to machine the heads upfront is kind of a big assumption because they may still be flat and not need it. So find out exactly what is being done to the heads for that cost. I would expect them to check for straightness and machine only if necessary, clean them, and do a valve job -new valve seals, re-lap ports, adjust the valve lash. On an SOHC head it is a lot easier because you just turn a screw on the rocker. DOHC cars you have to play mix and match with shims or lifters and maybe cut down the valves.

If you are getting charged that much and they are doing headwork then they might be pulling the whole engine instead of doing it in the car. So a lot of seals/gaskets should get replaced along with maybe the timing stuff and clutch (if it's manual) depending on how they look.

All of that goes a long way but you are still leaving the shortblock untouched. So the bearings, cylinder walls, and rings are not being checked or replaced. Before you go ahead with the work, have a leakdown test done to check the integrity of the cylinders and send an oil sample into blackstone labs. If everything checks out well then your block is in decent shape and repairs will be worth it. If leakage is above 7-8% and it is coming through the rings, or if there is bearing material in the oil, don't bother. Have them do the gaskets in the car on the cheap and drive it into the ground.

As far as what wears out on these cars it's the same as everything else, except you have extra differentials and cv axles. Tie rods, ball joints, struts, axles, wheel bearings, brake stuff, misc engine sensors will all need to be replaced at some point, power windows and a/c and sunroofs might have issues, etc. But it's all the stuff you have to deal with on any car that is well over 100k miles.

My legacy is at 205k and the a/c doesn't work, sunroof is broken, I've had the engine out twice- once for headgaskets and once for a full rebuild, trans has been out like 4 times because of throwout bearing/clutch stuff, all the suspension and brakes have been replaced, I need to do the suspension again and inner tie rods and probably the whole steering rack and the timing belt/water pump stuff is due pretty soon, fuel injectors probably need a cleaning, and I'm waiting for the fuel pump and radiator to fail.

If I had not worked in a shop and been able to do all the work myself and get parts at cost I would probably have pushed my car off a cliff.

Plugs were done at 45,000-50,000. It only drops RPM's very occasionally at idle, no other running issues, not on a regular basis like a vacuum leak would (should). I also cleaned the MAFS, to no avail. No light on, and nothing showed up on a scan.

I started using using Lucas fuel system cleaner with Startron enzyme fuel stabilizer and have seen a slight improvement.

If it doesn't stall, and doesn't throw a code, and otherwise runs fine, I wouldn't worry too much about it for now. And the additive stuff is bullshit so stop wasting money on it.