Billing for Search and Rescue

[BrianH]

Reuters) - After an all-terrain vehicle accident in the Utah desert last spring, 53-year-old Mikki Babineau expected a long recuperation for collapsed lungs and 18 broken ribs.

What the Idaho woman didn't expect was a $750 bill from the local Utah sheriff's office for sending a volunteer search and rescue unit to her aid, a service for which the sheriff in that county regularly charges fees.

Just a handful of states, including Oregon, Maine and Babineau's home state of Idaho, have laws authorizing local agencies to bill for rescues when factors such as recklessness, illegal activity or false information led to the predicament.

http://news.yahoo.com/stranded-u-adv...141653582.html

I guess I don't have too much sympathy for the argument that charging for rescues discourages rescues. That seems to compound and reward poor judgment.

Ideally, there would be an 'insurance program' similar to Colorado's.

http://www.huts.org/In_The_Field/corsar_info.html

(BTW whatever happened to Mountain Divisions 1-9? How come we never hear about them?)

With this COSAR card, it is my understanding that you will not be charged for rescue if one becomes necessary.

Given the increasing ease with which people can get lost or over their head, (My GPS failed...) I think upping the ante in an effort to get people to take more responsibility and be better educated is a good thing.

[Hugh Conway]

There are a number of rescue insurance schemes available. Charging for rescues isn't a BFD, to me, I don't understand the objections anymore other than proforma stupidity from the usual parties.

[AdironRider]

I really dont have an issue with free rescues.

I mean, its really no different than other public services like police, fire, (depending on muni) EMT/Ambulance, etc. You dont see people up in arms everytime the fire department is called demanding a full refund for all tax dollars spent on the service.

And I do put faith in the fact that people wont call if they know a large bill is coming. Maybe not choose to sit and die otherwise, but theyll definitely exhaust all other options before placing that call, which often means getting themselves into a worse situation, both for themselves and their eventual rescuers, prior to making that call.

Its such a small problem it seems to be such a trivial issue. Albeit one that city slickers find easy to get behind because they think playing in the mtns = death sentence.

[liv2ski]

If someone saves my ass, I am happy to cut the agency a $750 check. Just sayin......

[DasBlunt]

I was ready to see some sort of 10K plus bill.

750USD is news worthy?

fuck off.

[systemoverblow'd]

If someone saves my ass, I am happy to cut the agency a $750 check. Just sayin......

I was ready to see some sort of 10K plus bill.

750USD is news worthy?

fuck off.

Yeah, seriously this. $750? 3/4's of your rib cage broken and a punctured lung? Suck it up, pay the bill and thank your stars you're around to bitch.

[BrianH]

I mean, its really no different than other public services like police, fire, (depending on muni) EMT/Ambulance, etc. You dont see people up in arms everytime the fire department is called demanding a full refund for all tax dollars spent on the service.

And I do put faith in the fact that people wont call if they know a large bill is coming. Maybe not choose to sit and die otherwise, but theyll definitely exhaust all other options before placing that call, which often means getting themselves into a worse situation, both for themselves and their eventual rescuers, prior to making that call.

Its such a small problem it seems to be such a trivial issue. Albeit one that city slickers find easy to get behind because they think playing in the mtns = death sentence.

I don't think specialized wilderness rescue is the same as a public service. Choosing to go off the grid is much different from living on the grid and paying taxes to enjoy the benefits of that. So I see a huge difference between paying taxes for fire/police protection etc. versus paying for a rescue that is on beyond zebra.

Oh I believe that the thought of paying for your rescue may cause some people not to call. Maybe they figure it out. But I don't have too much sympathy.

[philth]

Reserved....................

[summit]

COSAR card (or an appropriate license like boating, hunting, ATV, etc) does not preclude charging for rescue. It allows SAR organizations to attempt (request) to recoup costs incurred on that rescue from the state fund.

The reason that you aren't charged for rescue is because that rescue organization chooses not to charge. NASAR and MRA support No-Charge-For-Rescue.

The real problem is that in the USA, SAR is the responsibility of the Sherrif (except national parks, military bases, and the ocean) and most of the wild US has a low population density compared to say, the mountains of central Europe. Since most SAR teams only have a few dozen missions a year, yet are often incredibly manpower intensive, it makes little sense to have a dedicated paid-SAR team in most areas. So, what these Sherrifs do is some combination of a officers and volunteer rescuers.

Since you don't get a bill for calling calling the police and most volunteers balk at cheapening their altruistic efforts by sending a bill, you don't end up seeing rescue groups (or the military) billing for rescues in most places/circumstances. Obviously there are a few common exceptions: medical helicopters, EMS based medical care, certain counties, and some areas where the SO has delegated SAR to the FD. None of these are consistent.

Billing becomes hard to calculate when you use volunteers and it adds additional headaches. Who handles billing? Do you send people to collections? How much do you charge?

It is true that people do not call for rescue out of fear of charges. They'll try to find their way down on the cliff, drag themselves out with the broken ankle in the snowstorm, wait until they are truly screwed, making the rescuers job harder. I hear it all the time at 4AM, "I'm so worried about the cost of this! What? It is free? I'd have called you 12 hours ago!" This increases the risk, manpower, and time required to accomplish a mission. Thus, volunteers are more interested in looking out for their own time and safety than possibly recouping a few bucks for gas, maintenance, and equipment replacement funds.

Sure, I'd love it if there were both the American culture and need to have full-time paid SAR outside of national parks... assuming that it paid a good living.

[MTT]

I can understand if resources are sent out to bail someone out for doing something blatently illegal. But really bill for Rescue servicies is Bull shit. Especialy bill from Police rescue services, Fire, forest service ect. We PAY plenty for them, and when they are not doing actual rescue they burn the money and jet fuel training.

[TBS]

The 304th Rescue Squadron (USAF) out of Portland does a lot of mountain rescues in the PNW. They don't charge - instead they look at it as a training mission.

Unfortunately, USDoD decided that the 304th was needed in Afghanistan, so local air rescue resources are at best slim.

I guess I think that wherever public safety agencies have purchased air rescue equipment, they should be required to use the equipment when necessary without charge. At the same time I think there should be a cost to the get-out-of-jail-free card. Maybe have a sliding scale based on stupidity level involved, ranging from a case of beer for each rescuer when shit just happens beyond reasonable control, to thousands of dollars in fees for epic, multi-level fuckups...

The agency could also Record the rescues on video and sell rights to a reality TV show as a source of funds. They could allow the victims who dont want their asshattery broadcast to buy the footage for that segment. The show's spancer would obviously be...GoPro.

[mtngirl79]

SAR is against charging for rescues, so I wonder how that works with states using the volunteer SAR resources and also charging people for rescues.

I imagine if there wasn't a volunteer SAR it would cost a lot more for the government to train, equip and pay hourly rates for someone else to do everything that SAR does, as SAR is involved with more than just rescuing people out recreating in the mountains, and thus, the government should respect SAR's view on charging for rescues, or else employ their own rescue teams.

750 dollars is not unreasonable to pay, and I would hope that most people needing SAR services would make a sizable donation to the group that rescued them.

[PowerWhore7]

$750 or $10,000...

I would be like “ thank you sir/mam for saving my life, my Visa number is 4217......."

[BCMtnHound]

I'm in the camp of volunteer SAR not charging so that the bill is not a factor in the request for help; like was mentioned earlier, I'd rather have the search called out sooner for both the safety of our team, and the increased potential of a successful rescue. I do hear of resorts that charge for rescues that are within their controlled recreation tenures, however, and that is their perogative (for profit venture, with stated limitation of liabilities with the service provided, within specific land use tenure having posted patrol boundaries).

Was on a call-out very recently. Started off as a rescue but very quickly turned into a recovery. Who pays this bill? Seems society frowns on leaving human remains lying around the wilds, but should the family or group (if any) be liable for the recovery? Maybe this is not the same or even a related issue, but SAR does both ...

FWIW, SAR in BC is funded by several avenues, including municipal and regional district funds, and lottery disbursements. RCMP control the call-out for ground-based SAR. Seems to work well for all but the most active groups (i.e. North Shore SAR in Vancouver).

[sfotex]

SAR is against charging for rescues, so I wonder how that works with states using the volunteer SAR resources and also charging people for rescues.
.

The Mountain Rescue Association (MRA) is against charging for rescues. A lot of Western Mountain SAR teams are MRA teams, Grand County in Moab isn't. Moab is in a unique situation where there are tons of tourists getting in trouble and not a lot of residents, resources, or tax base.

http://moabtimes.com/pages/full_stor...ue%20&id=67396

[alpyalpy]

I always thought getting rescued costed an arm and a leg. So it's kinda weird To me that people would complain over a $750 bill. I live in Washington state but I don't know if its any different here than elsewhere

Perhaps instead of money being charged to a person. They should instead have some community service. Like hey we spent 500 man hours saving your dumbass. How's about trail renovation on the summer for a few days or something

[Zesty Not Spicy]

Interesting, a Utah sheriff's dept gave me and some buddies a free lift on their bird (complete with a hot load, night vision gogs, etc) quite a few years ago and didn't charge us a dime. Figured we were going to be in for a couple G's each at least which we would have gladly paid. Of course we weren't so much unlucky as we were stupid.

[sfotex]

Interesting, a Utah sheriff's dept gave me and some buddies a free lift on their bird (complete with a hot load, night vision gogs, etc) quite a few years ago and didn't charge us a dime. Figured we were going to be in for a couple G's each at least which we would have gladly paid. Of course we weren't so much unlucky as we were stupid.

Most of the Northern Utah counties have MRA teams, southern Utah is different. What county were you rescued in?

[char]

I can understand if resources are sent out to bail someone out for doing something blatently illegal. But really bill for Rescue servicies is Bull shit. Especialy bill from Police rescue services, Fire, forest service ect. We PAY plenty for them, and when they are not doing actual rescue they burn the money and jet fuel training.

As far as I know, the USFS is not mandated or funded to do SAR. I've worked for the FS for 13 years in various capacities and have never been formally trained in SAR techniques. We have been involved in SAR's over the years though, I have no idea who paid for it. I think USFS crews and overhead are used fairly often to do searches, but there isn't an in house capacity to design a search grid, etc.

FWIW- I fly around in a contracted helicopter (1/2 mil/year) that is equipped with med gear and the ability to rappel in EMT's with overnight gear. The current hourly flight rate is around $1,800/hour. That doesn't even cover having it available for use. (5k+ per day).

If you want FS resources available and trained to do SAR in a professional capacity recognize that it may come at the expense of some other service the FS provides.

[RootSkier]

EMT/Ambulance

Free ambulance rides? Try more like $900, at least around here.

[sfotex]

Here's a list of some recent incidents where people in trouble didn't call SAR because they were worried about paying:

http://www.coloradosarboard.org/csrb...SAR%20Help.pdf

[AdironRider]

Free ambulance rides? Try more like $900, at least around here.

Did you miss the (depending on muni) part of that quote?

[MTT]

As far as I know, the USFS is not mandated or funded to do SAR. I've worked for the FS for 13 years in various capacities and have never been formally trained in SAR techniques. We have been involved in SAR's over the years though, I have no idea who paid for it. I think USFS crews and overhead are used fairly often to do searches, but there isn't an in house capacity to design a search grid, etc.

FWIW- I fly around in a contracted helicopter (1/2 mil/year) that is equipped with med gear and the ability to rappel in EMT's with overnight gear. The current hourly flight rate is around $1,800/hour. That doesn't even cover having it available for use. (5k+ per day).

If you want FS resources available and trained to do SAR in a professional capacity recognize that it may come at the expense of some other service the FS provides.

You kind of make the point. When the call goes out, someone is lost on the Mountain of in the woods.

EVERYBODY shows up to help. In many parts of the country there is not SAR. Just everybody jumps in to help.

the down side to that, putting a dollar figure on the resources expended (To excess in many cases) is not something you should put back on the rescue'e

We have big government and all these resources exist. And when a call goes out, I don't think a risk / cost assesment is done. We just pile it on. right down to extra Sheriffs / Ploce / fire / Fish and Game forest Service. they all show up, and X 10 if there is a news crew.

Not complaining, but to charge is? not right

[shaft]

FWIW, SAR in BC is funded by several avenues, including municipal and regional district funds, and lottery disbursements. RCMP control the call-out for ground-based SAR. Seems to work well for all but the most active groups (i.e. North Shore SAR in Vancouver).

Once again, Canada trumps the US. I'd rather donate to a good cause like SAR than worry about charges when in the wilderness and in need of help. Many of our heroes get rad wayyyy out there and couldn't afford the $750, let alone $10k.

[Hugh Conway]

Many of our heroes get rad wayyyy out there and couldn't afford the $750, let alone $10k.

boo fucking hoo, I'm sure they could start a kickstarter campaign to fund the cost of their radness


ambulances aren't free