Wet between Goretex Pro shell and insulating layer. WTF?

[raueda1]

I recently got an Arcteryx shell for skiing (Vertic jacket, Goretex Pro). The idea was to supplement an older but similar MH shell that I use mostly for hiking, skinning, etc. I've been using a MH Compressor jacket underneath as a light insulation layer. With my old shell this was a great cold weather combination - warm, dry, no moisture problems that I ever recall. But with the new Arc shell if I'm working hard the inside of the shell actually gets dripping wet, along with the outside of the Compressor. This seems most pronounced when fairly cold, say teens and single digits (when it's warmer I usually vent). It's almost as if the cold inner surface of the shell is acting as a condensing surface. The compressor is still pretty good when wet but if it were down I'd be nervous.

The new jacket has never been washed. WTF? Anybody ever experience anything like this?

[zombinate]

was the MH shell Gore? Did it fit closer than the new shell? I ask because, AFAIK, Gore still condenses before it transmits moisture through the membrane.

If the previous shell was gore, but fit closer than the new shell, it would have a higher temperature differential between the inner and outer of the shell. Ultimately gore does better the higher the temperature difference is, or the bigger the humidity difference is. Pushing moisture from warm->cold or wet->dry.

Or perhaps the new shell is just balls

[raueda1]

That might explain it. MH shell WAS Gore and significantly closer fit than new shell. So I guess this moves me from WTF?? to WTF!!

[neufox47]

Did the MH jacket contain a small fuzzy liner that doesn't really look like a liner and the new jacket just has a smooth inside? The old jacket may have had a similar issue but it hid the condensation in the liner. Distance between shell and insulation is not helping

If you are sweating, vent JONG. I don't care how cold it is.

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[raueda1]

MH shell didn't have a liner, looks same as Arc - oddly enough, as both are Goretex pro. As for venting, if I'm even close to sweating and I do vent. I vent most of the time. I'm a major sweater, I know how to manage it. Th wetness/condensation thing happened WITHOUT sweating, i wasn't even warm. It's like the humidity was condensing into water instead of breathing out. JONG.

[counterfeitfake]

MH shell didn't have a liner, looks same as Arc - oddly enough, as both are Goretex pro. As for venting, if I'm even close to sweating and I do vent. I vent most of the time. I'm a major sweater, I know how to manage it. Th wetness/condensation thing happened WITHOUT sweating, i wasn't even warm. It's like the humidity was condensing into water instead of breathing out. JONG.

Uh... I don't understand what you're saying. Where did the water come from?

[raueda1]

Uh... I don't understand what you're saying. Where did the water come from?

It came from me. The best i can explain it is like skiing in sealed plastic garbage bag and the vapor condensing on the inside of the bag cause the inside surface of the bag is cold and vapor condenses to liquid. I wasn't sweating detectably but the body still emits moisture and it's humid under the shell, so i gues that's the source. For some combination of reasons the shell wasn't breathing out the vapor. It happened a few times. I've used Goretex stuff for 30 (?) years under every imaginable condition and never had that happen that I recall.

[GeezerSteve]

MH Compressor = "light insulation layer?" Huh? Isn't the Compressor a puffy? I'd sweat like a pig in that combo.

[SkiNebraski]

MH Compressor = "light insulation layer?" Huh? Isn't the Compressor a puffy? I'd sweat like a pig in that combo.

^ Truth. Even on the coldest of days I wear a light fleece and base layer under my shell. Was your base layer completely soaked?

[stuckathuntermtn]

It makes no sense that gore-tex has to let water condense before transporting through it. If it could only move through it when liquid, it wouldn't be water resistant.

That's all I have to add.

[counterfeitfake]

Well I am not trying to say you're full of shit or anything, and obviously there's some difference between your old shell and the new one, but if I were getting wet inside my jacket, I would decide I must be sweating, and try wearing less insulation.

The Compressor does seem pretty heavy-duty to me, and I wouldn't imagine it breathes all that well.

[Rideski]

__________________

[stuckathuntermtn]

Luis CK is hilarious, and so is that rant, but it's a perfect example of how out of touch and technophobic some people are. Your cellphone doesn't act slow because it's going to space. And gore tex is not new.

[Rideski]

Neither is not knowing how to layer/vent.

[raueda1]

You guys apparently aren't listening or you've decided I'm an idiot cause you can't fathom what I'm saying despite your 10^10 posts on TGR. Well, it seems that there actually are phenomena outside the scope of your collective experience. And yeah, I know about venting. Because 3/4 of the posters have no fucking idea what they're doing doesn't mean I don't. Douchebags. Ok, now that I've gotten that off my chest....

I actually don't know if it's the "compressor," that's the closest thing I saw in the MH catalog. It's a very thin, light polartech (?) and nylon jacket, scarcely a puffy. I've used it for years with the MH shell in every imaginable kind of weather in New England with no problem.
Here it is again: I'm warm but NOT actively sweating. The inner layer of the jacket is DRY. My base layer is DRY. The outer surface of the jacket and inner surface of the shell was wet. The only explanation I can think of is condensation so somehow the goretex isn't transmitting vapor.

[raueda1]

I wear a little more if I'm riding lifts and it's single digits: base layer + said "compressor" which i don't zip. See my post above. Anyway, no, base layer NOT soaked at all. That's the whole point.

[stuckathuntermtn]

I saw you mention the venting and the temp and all the good details, if it's any consolation.

[raueda1]

I saw you mention the venting and the temp and all the good details, if it's any consolation.

I guess. Apparently I've hit upon a hitherto unknown combination or humidity, temperature, vapor pressure and thermodynamics that renders goretex useless.

[old goat]

I'm with the guy who said the difference is the fit. Loose fitting shell allows shell temperature to drop. Water vapor reaching shell condenses due to the cold rather than exit via the pores. As someone said--Goretex transmits vapor but not liquid water. Unfortunately the only solution I see is to vent, even when it's cold enough that you don't feel you need to. Or stop wearing the Arcteryx.

[lynchdogger]

Bring it back next year and tell them it breathes for shit. See the 2013-14 new gear thread. Gore-tex has a new pro-shell- 30% more breathable. Of course this only works if arteryx will use the new product next year and if their warranty is as good as patagonia.
Gore is gore and everything has limits.
As a heavy sweater I have switched to a gore windstopper soft shell for all but the nastiest of days. Breathes so much better than a hard shell.

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[bbense]

And gore tex is not new.

Yet there are suckers to buy it every season.

[raueda1]

I'm with the guy who said the difference is the fit. Loose fitting shell allows shell temperature to drop. Water vapor reaching shell condenses due to the cold rather than exit via the pores. As someone said--Goretex transmits vapor but not liquid water. Unfortunately the only solution I see is to vent, even when it's cold enough that you don't feel you need to. Or stop wearing the Arcteryx.

Yeah, I think this is it, it fits the facts. MH shell seems to work better overall, never had any problems ever. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) for me there's no returning anything, everything I own is an extreme hookup of one kind or another. I guess Arc shell is relegated to non-arctic conditions. It seems great the other 90% of the time.

[GeezerSteve]

If the garment has Polartech insulation, it's called a "puffy," at least around these parts.

Different Gore products have different levels of breatheability -- although none of them breathe all that well. (I'm a sweaty Viking; No ePTFE shell -- not even eVent -- works for me if I'm exerting >30% unless I'm wearing ePTFE next-to-skin, and I layer over that if necessary for warmth.)

I doubt that your Arc' Gore shell is defective. It is what it is. It's apparent that your new Gore shell has exceeds its breatheability limit when combined with a light puff for your personal rate of perspiration. (FWIW, I concur with those talking about loose fit.) So the answer is to either get rid of it or adapt to it. Have you tried a light fleece layer?

[MultiVerse]

Washing the jacket might help. Gore is less susceptible to contamination than eVent but it's still possible that a tech-wash could clean away anything blocking the membrane that might have been picked up along the way.

FWIW, if conditions don't necessitate full waterproof membrane then Polartec Power Shield Pro, regular Power Shield or even any of the many DWR coated windproof stretch wovens are a lot more comfortable.

[Lindahl]

It has nothing to do with breathability or persperiation - you'll get this same problem with Neoshell and eVent. It has to do with condensation. Warm air coming out of your insulative layer is condensing on the cold shell. The fit of the looser shell causes it to be colder (air gap between it and the warm insulative layer). With your old shell, it was tight enough to keep the shell warm enough to avoid condensation. This is one reason why I prefer insulated hardshells for very cold temperatures - you get the venting capabilities of a loose shell, but no condensation issues.

You get this problem with bivys (and especially tents) all the time in colder weather - so much so that you can actually get a frozen lens of ice on the inside of the shell. The problem also occurs when sleeping in colder temperatures, where water vapor condenses on the outershell of your sleeping bag and eventually gets trapped in the insulation. Your sleeping bag can easily gain a substantial amount of weight over a longer trip in water vapor. This is why synthetic insulation is more popular in colder weather. A common technique is to use a sleeping bag with an overbag made with synthetic insulation - this way, you get the weight-to-warmth ratio of down, but the collection of condensation won't collapse the synthetic insulation in the overbag, and the warmth of your "sleep system" will be properly maintained. However, a better technique is to use a vapor barrier. The human body is constantly emitting an imperceptable amount of water vapor. If you have a vapor barrier, you can eliminate condensation altogether, because the vapor barrier prevents the water vapor from getting past your baselayer.