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Thread: Plum Guide toe lever problem...anyone else?

  1. #1
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    Plum Guide toe lever problem...anyone else?

    Didn't want this lost in the multi page Plum thread as it's specific to the toe lever.

    Toe lever is jammed in ski mode. I can not for the life of me get it to pull up in to locked skinning mode. Totally free of ice, steeping in and out still operates fine....just the lever. Nothing seems jammed in there or anything. Has anyone else had this?? I'm going to have another look at it and will probably have to pull the binding off to access the spring ect to see wtf is going on If you have had this and have fixed it definately want to hear what the problem / fix was.

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    Took binding off, horizontal pin attached to spring is supposed to slide back in the groove when you pull up on the lever. Took pin out, the groove that it slides back in worn just a little bit. Pin was getting stuck in that worn "hole".

    ...scraped down inconsistency in the little "hole" that shouldn't be there. Placed pin back in...seems to be working fine now.

    So there you have it....if you're level is fucking jammed and won't go in to tour lock. This may or may not be why. Fucking fuck.
    Last edited by time2clmb; 04-17-2012 at 04:30 PM.

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    is this twitter?
    ... jfost is really ignorant, he often just needs simple facts laid out for him...

  4. #4
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    "horizontal" pin that extends left and right in to the black lever...


    Same from bottom. Pin attached to spring...top in pic


    Groove that pin slides in...just looker right of black lever.

    ...when in ski mode groove does not show from side as pin is slid to pic right side in groove, and this is where the wear was in the groove which was jamming it.

    Hopefully that makes more sense. Obviously not an engineer.

    Works fine now, going to lube it with some Metolius cam lube. Noticed other toe piece is getting metal on metal type sticky also.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfost View Post
    is this twitter?
    Fuck yeah. Was looking for a quick fix as I don't have all night trying to figure it out and why the fuck not update as I go?? I forgot, this is TGR...why post some thing some one down the line might find helpful when instead I should tell you to suck on your moms twat.

  6. #6
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    I've had the similar issues with a sticky lever, but I could always get them into walk mode by pulling quite hard (or levering with ski pole handle). Afterwards I would lube up the slot with either wd40 or veggie oil, whatever I had handy. Same thing happened to a friend.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by time2clmb View Post
    Fuck yeah. Was looking for a quick fix as I don't have all night trying to figure it out and why the fuck not update as I go?? I forgot, this is TGR...why post some thing some one down the line might find helpful when instead I should tell you to suck on your moms twat.
    phew, that's more like it...

    thought I was logged into the wrong place for a minute you cumguzzling mommy gash-vacuum.
    ... jfost is really ignorant, he often just needs simple facts laid out for him...

  8. #8
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    Yeah I was pulling up fucking hard...also tried levering it with my pole a bunch but started to torque on the main arm of the toe piece, it was totally jammed. I'll definately be keeping it lubed often, never really thought anything of it as i've used them well below 30 days so far.

    thought I was logged into the wrong place for a minute you cumguzzling mommy gash-vacuum
    lol, tasted like cigarettes mixed with regret.

  9. #9
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    must be a stainless pin in the aluminum channel?

    IIRC the dynafit doesn't slide like that + is in plastic - but I'll look when I get home for comparo...

    seems like the cam lube is a good fix.
    ... jfost is really ignorant, he often just needs simple facts laid out for him...

  10. #10
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    ^ just compared with the Dynafit and they operate pretty much exactly the same. Difference between Dynafit (the ones I have) and Plum is plastic lever vs. metalic lever. Grooves / pin channels on both seem to be some sort of metal pin on metal. I have no idea how to tell the differences in metals / steels etc but the pin is duller and darker than the aluminum that the rest of the binding is made from.

    Seems to be functioning like new and smooth now with the cam lube on it.

  11. #11
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    My toe levers are sticky afte about 20 days of use now. I really had to force them into tour mode yesterday. Thanks for figuring this one out, I'll have a look at mine tonight.

    EDIT: I just had a play with mine (without removing the binding from my ski). Indeed there was a tiny notch where the pin sits when in unlocked ski mode. I smoothed it out a bit (all I had was a razor blade - any better suggestions?) and added some bike lube to the slot. They now switch into tour mode smoother than ever (at home, at least). Not an ideal situation, but something to check regularly.
    Last edited by LC; 04-18-2012 at 07:54 AM.

  12. #12
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    I love this place. Thanks t2c for making this a seperate thread. My Plums have 30 days on them as well and are getting sticky. Was thinking some sort of lube and now I know what to use. Better than that I already have some. Thank you.
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    holy fucking shit batman

    OP, you took the toe apart before applying lube to a metal on metal sliding part that operates in cold climates under high stress?

    I hope I don't make you sound like more of a jackass than you already are. And I'm just giving you shit, so no worries. I encountered the same issue and remedied with olive oil. However, not before I tried to lever the toe mechanism into 'walk' with my ski pole a few times in the field last Saturday. There was a little slop in the mounting screws after this so I tightened as necessary. When skiing out of the bc the next morning on a hard sidehilling slope, that toe piece ripped out of my wooden skis. FUCK that. Had to glissade/walk out 6 more miles.
    mmmm, snow

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    I never thought having the "take it apart, see how it works" curiosity made you a jackass.

    On the other hand, levering a toe lever until it produces "slop in the mounting screws"... whilst in the backcountry
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    Quote Originally Posted by snomaster View Post
    I tried to lever the toe mechanism into 'walk' with my ski pole a few times in the field last Saturday. There was a little slop in the mounting screws after this so I tightened as necessary.
    lol, guessing the amount of play was about the same as the width of a binding screw thread?

    Could try a dab of grease (automotive grease or swipe some from the heel track of your alpine bindings) instead of thin oils, would provide lubrication at higher loads and last a whole lot longer. Do it before having problems, to protect the aluminum slot from wear.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by snomaster View Post
    OP, you took the toe apart before applying lube to a metal on metal sliding part that operates in cold climates under high stress?

    I hope I don't make you sound like more of a jackass than you already are. And I'm just giving you shit, so no worries. I encountered the same issue and remedied with olive oil. However, not before I tried to lever the toe mechanism into 'walk' with my ski pole a few times in the field last Saturday. There was a little slop in the mounting screws after this so I tightened as necessary. When skiing out of the bc the next morning on a hard sidehilling slope, that toe piece ripped out of my wooden skis. FUCK that. Had to glissade/walk out 6 more miles.
    ...it was totally 100% jammed and I wanted to find out WHY. You know....to make sure it's not going to be a reocurring problem since i'll be starting a traverse with them tommorrow. I could have sat there continuing to pry it up with my ski pole trying the same thing over and over unsuccessfully like a trained fucking monkey risking breaking other parts, or I could figure it out to why it was stuck. Taking a fucking toe piece off is a pretty simple task for most people so I see no issue with having a look. I'm not the one who levered it up hard to the point where it created slop in my binding and then ripped out probably as a result....and i'm the jackass? Fucking moron. "And i'm just giving you shit so no worries".

  17. #17
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    I had this same issue with the plums that I bought from bent gate mountaineering. The first time it happened (~5-10days), pulling hard did the trick. The second time(10-15 days), I levered with the handle on my ski pole, and this happened...



    Before this though, I noticed a couple other misgivings...





    Sounds like the lever issue is an easy fix, just take care of it before it becomes an issue, and if it does jam, don't go gorilla on it like I did.

    As for the cracks in the base plates, I'm sure it can be at least partially blamed on my laziness in using the "direct ski to tour" method of twisting the heel while lifting my foot while the toe is locked out. I've known that this places some extra stress on the toe, but didn't realize it was going to lead to this... I think the reason I've gotten away with it on other bindings is because all other toes that I've used are TLT/Vertical style stamped steel toe frames, which probably have more spring/give/strength than these aluminum plates do. TLT style toes also seem to have a bit looser tolerances in the pivots, where as the plums are seem tight. It seems like it would also help if plum put some extra material in that area, although my guess is the failure would just move to the next weakest link. Long story short, I won't be doing the "direct to tour" move anymore, even on TLT's, now that I realize how much it stresses them.

    Otherwise I loved these things. The heels were especially well designed and bomber. All is not lost though, as I was able to get store credit on them for next year. WOOOHOOO!!!!

    EDIT: (before the Plum bashing gets out of hand) I think 1000-oaks nailed it... this is a small company trying to bring some innovation to a market that dynafit has really done a piss poor job with, and I still think plums are great bindings with just a few kinks to work out. These Plums actually failed several months ago, but I was hesitant to post the pictures because I don't want to kick Plum while they're down, but I think it's good for other people to see the potential failures, which is why I ended up posting them.

    For reference though, all the Dynafit toes that I have are extremely loose and rattly, probably because of the "direct to tour" and other misuse on them. While they didn't fail catastrophically like the Plums, the result was worse for me... I skied off the summit of Mt Whitney last year in my dynafit FT12's, only to have one ski come flying off (they were locked out, but the lock mechanism no longer engaged properly because they just got loose after use & abuse). This led to a 200 foot slide for life that luckily ended 20 ft above a 150-200ft cliff, with only a chip of bone broken off each elbow. The point I'm trying to make is that there is no solid, lightweight binding yet, and I still think Plum is the closest there is. Dynafit keeps piling on more plastic bullshit while taking steps backwards in reliability and durability pouring their $$ into marketing instead of R&D, whereas Plum is making progress and trying to fix their problems. As for the million other touring bindings out there... Dukes fold like silly puddy in touring mode if you over-rotate them, fritschi's are just sloppy from the getgo and blow up if you look at them wrong in downhill mode (the toe's especially), and no other newfangled frame binding is ever going to hold a candle to a tech style binding in terms of weight, performance, and durability. Someone just needs to innovate and tweak the tech binding a bit, and Plum is the only one I see doing that, so kudos to them.

    Sorry for the long rant, but I think it's important to approach failures like these with a little more perspective.
    Last edited by awake1563; 05-13-2012 at 11:33 AM.
    but I know we can't all stay here forever, so I wanna write my words on the face of today...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by awake1563 View Post


    Before this though, I noticed a couple other misgivings...




    Fuck me.

    Fans will shoot me, but none of that is acceptable in a binding.
    Life is not lift served.

  19. #19
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    Toe breakage due to levering the heel sideways with a ski pole, while the toe is locked so there's no "give" in the mechanism whatsoever, is unacceptable?

  20. #20
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    Yes.

    And even accounting for that level of 'misuse' I'd expect a wood core ski to yield some give before the binding base plate cracked at both screws.

    How many metal parts on the Plum have failed so far? It seems to be a bit of a trend, but man, they get cut some slack where as other brands would be crucified.
    Life is not lift served.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hohes View Post
    Yes.

    And even accounting for that level of 'misuse' I'd expect a wood core ski to yield some give before the binding base plate cracked at both screws.

    How many metal parts on the Plum have failed so far? It seems to be a bit of a trend, but man, they get cut some slack where as other brands would be crucified.
    Dude they look cool. Duh

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hohes View Post
    Yes.

    And even accounting for that level of 'misuse' I'd expect a wood core ski to yield some give before the binding base plate cracked at both screws.

    How many metal parts on the Plum have failed so far? It seems to be a bit of a trend, but man, they get cut some slack where as other brands would be crucified.
    Agree 100%. I like my Plums but it feels like this is becoming an epidemic. So far we've seen a number of failures of the aluminum with no real solutions.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hohes View Post
    It seems to be a bit of a trend, but man, they get cut some slack where as other brands would be crucified.
    That's because they use more cool polished metal than their competitors, and around here, anything that's metal has to be better than anything that's not. Witness the comparative reactions to the new AT's from Salomon vs Tyrolia by people who've skied neither.

  24. #24
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    Four 5mm moderately hardened screws in a sheet of steel plate would take about 10,000 lbs to break off in a tensile load, and about 6,000 lbs to shear using the 60% rule of thumb.

    Of course a ski of fiberglass/epoxy/wood/(and possibly a metal binding retention plate) isn't a sheet of steel, so just for discussion let's guess that it might take 40% of the 10,000 lbs load to drag four screws sideways through a ski, tearing through the fiberglass and everything. So 4,000 lbs. Let's look at a Plum toe, which is no more than 150 grams of thin, sculpted aluminum intended for minimum weight. Should 150g of thin, spread-out aluminum mechanism be expected to take 4,000 lbs of loading?

    If you were going to hang your Chevy Tahoe from a crane so you could work underneath it, would you be comfortable with using a Plum Guide toe between the 4" crane strap and your truck? Guessing not. But folks expect the screws to tear through a ski before the Plum toe baseplate breaks?

    I wonder how many guys out there have great ideas about new binding designs, but don't bother bringing them to market because of unreasonable product expectations. Who would want to take on that kind of liability, or potential online flaming that puts them out of business? If it's strong enough, "it's too heavy." If it's light enough, "it's too weak and a flawed design." I'm certainly not saying any binding or any mechanism is perfect, but expectations should be more in line with reality. These manufacturers are trying to find the best solution for their users and maximize the stoke, and compromises have to be made.
    Last edited by 1000-oaks; 05-12-2012 at 06:41 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1000-oaks View Post
    drag four screws sideways through a ski, tearing through the fiberglass and everything.
    I said yield a little give [in the core], not rip out. And although I am blinded by numbers, I do not think we were talking tensile load on the screws, more like isolated but repeated instances of strain across the screws.

    You can easily continue to blind me with numbers. Please disclose any vested interests at the same time (I am not accusing you of having any, but if you do, they should be on the table).
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