Canyons area slide 2/23: lessons learned

[Tye 1on]

This thread is to share anything that the collective can learn from this tragic loss of another one of the tribe. This won't be moderated in terms of posts that may be critical, rude, or very direct difficult questions. But lets keep that spirited discussion here, not in the vibes thread. tks.

[neckdeep]

Same as before and before and before and before. "High danger" has a literal, objective meaning and one should not subjectively refer back to past successful experiences and assume another successful outcome will happen again. That is the so-called heuristic trap. Respect the efforts of your local experts and heed their daily reports. A recent Teton high rating was accompanied by the strong wording "expect to be caught in avalanches". Everyone's free to make their own decisions I guess but, personally, I was raised by a gambler and casino dealer and I was taught to respect the odds because the house will always win over time.

Sad to lose another young person. It must be a failure of our sport's community and culture as a whole that this keeps happening. And repeating itself despite preceding high profile fatalities. Other sports I have been involved with (whitewater, climbing, spelunking, scuba) are learned from mentors and you participate in these activities as a team. Notably different in those sports is the high degree of safety education and overall emphasis on getting home alive. I can only guess that our culture's notable preference for individualism is somehow doing us in. My Pet Powder Goat's post about trying to warn people about that slope and being disregarded underscores something about our culture's unwillingness to learn.

Think about it. High danger. In whitewater, thats like putting in on a river that is out of its banks and rolling logs. In climbing, that's like ignoring fast approaching lighting storms. In spelunking, that's like going into a cave's drainage system during a heavy rain. High danger means don't do it unless you are the rare individual blessed both with phenomenal luck and near superhuman physical abilities. Because I can think of a number of near superhuman individuals who's luck just plain ran out.

[icelanticskier]

Respect the efforts of your local experts and heed their daily reports..

this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. avy bulletins are pretty spot on. they are easy to read and understand for most folks that have and do spend time in the bc and have maybe taken a course. daily reports take most of the guesswork out of snow assessments for ya.

so sad to lose another life. don't know the experience level of the deceased. seeing folks die that have maybe no clue of the hazards around them due to little to no experience is one thing, but seeing folks die that have a TON of experience is really inexcusable given the clarity/content of daily bulletins, and how easy it is to get the info you need these days. has been happening too much.

rog

[Canada1]

I believe every face from McKonkeys through 9990 has gone this season. (I'm not sure if the face under the jupiter chair) This storm came in and rained hard before the snow.

Someone mentioned what can be done at that gate? Maybe a tribute to those that have passed on that face. Maybe the story of the kid that was never picked up at day care after the mother and father got caught there? Even with that, it might just seem more hard core to the tourist kid that walks past the skull and cross bones.

My comments here do not reflect on the young man who passed away there yesterday. He seems to have made an educated risk and lost. My heart and prayers go out to all of you.

[moose pit]

It is the same and will be the same as all the other avi threads...
To all the sprayers and arm chair qb douchenozzels that either don't ski or ski but are totally clueless about anything other than blue squares and green circles you should shut up, listen, think and then maybe ask a intelligent question or two.

I have no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of the maggots that do venture beyond the ropes have made bad, stupid or careless decisions that could have resulted in an avi fatality (or multiple) but didn't. I know I have more than once.

(I'd like to think) The reality in most of the cases where back country skiers (not gapers and jongs) have taken beatings in avi's there have been a series of decisions made: risk has been assessed, conditions are considered, lines thought out, safety checks, and some solid BullShittin'. Remember damn near always you have fun and go home.

Sometimes signs are ignored (been that guy? I have) other times there are no signs to be seen and things go wrong. Or a careless decision is made; ever look over your shoulder when breaking trail to see you group bunching up behind you? or just really exposed? How about pushing a little bit further when the snow feels off just to have a poke and not letting the rest of the group know that shit might be a little twitchy in that spot?

My point is we as a collective can beat the shit outta a report and speculate on what happened but it is not going to help or inform decisions (in most cases). This recent canyons fatality falls into the high hazard, high risk and what in retrospect was a "bad decision" category - the line probably gets skied lots in high hazard and by the sounds of things people do die on it. But not everyone that skis it dies and most that ski it have a good day and go home afterwards.

For the JONGs that are gonna show up to the party get educated (so you can be dangerous and opinionated) then get some experience and hopefully between the two you don't fuck up too bad and end up dead.

Vibes.

(I will continue to be a prick when it come to stupid - just sayin')

[Tarzanman]

Weren't some of the 'experts' themselves caught in a multiple-fatality slide just a few weeks ago?

Education and preparedness will help nudge chances of survival, but bad judgement will trump any kind of precautions you take.... and it is not a problem that only affects the relatively inexperienced.

Make sure you remember that the next time you call someone a 'jong' from your high horse.

[quienes?]

might be worth a separate thread or might be re-run, but has anyone ever filtered avalanche fatality data to look specifically at what the victim was riding?

Non-releasable skis and boards, seems to me, could serve as an anchor that pulls the sliding rider deeper. Especially if the board is perpendicular to the sliding snow. I recall a Highlands slide a few years ago - during an avalanche awareness class maybe? - where the telemarker was sucked under and the report noted how the non-releasable bindings certainly didn't increase his chances of staying atop the snow. (I feel like I read that premise on tele-cult-buster Lou's blog too.)

Really not wanting this to be some sort of snowboarder-knee-dipper attack ... just wondering if anyone has ever looked at the data through an alpine-telemark-snowboard filter. Of course raw numbers would hardly be a precise examination without a user rate, which I imagine is impossible. Maybe tallied against retail numbers on splitboard-telemark-AT sales? Still very inexact.

Not sure how it could be done, really aside from anecdotal evidence and breaking out individual avalanche fatality reports that specifically address non-releaseable bindings.

[wasatchcrawler]

In some years the snowpack is stable, like last year, and you can get after it and ride big steep lines. In other years, this year, the snowpack is unstable and you just can not ride those same big steep lines. It is hard to see the goods all around you calling to you, and you may see a few tracks from people that got away with it. But discipline in the mountains is crucial and self denial is hard. There have been numerous close calls this year and its a miracle we have not lost more. But we keep pushing it and luck eventually runs out. Our gopro utube facebook look at me society encourages it. This year is not the year to push it. Learn to mellow out, throttle back, and observe your surroundings. Tragically this young person did not have time to learn this. You can improve your odds through education and experience, but then again sometimes you are just in the wrong place at the wrong time and thats all.

[A2thaK]

might be worth a separate thread or might be re-run, but has anyone ever filtered avalanche fatality data to look specifically at what the victim was riding?

Non-releasable skis and boards, seems to me, could serve as an anchor that pulls the sliding rider deeper. Especially if the board is perpendicular to the sliding snow. I recall a Highlands slide a few years ago - during an avalanche awareness class maybe? - where the telemarker was sucked under and the report noted how the non-releasable bindings certainly didn't increase his chances of staying atop the snow. (I feel like I read that premise on tele-cult-buster Lou's blog too.)

Really not wanting this to be some sort of snowboarder-knee-dipper attack ... just wondering if anyone has ever looked at the data through an alpine-telemark-snowboard filter. Of course raw numbers would hardly be a precise examination without a user rate, which I imagine is impossible. Maybe tallied against retail numbers on splitboard-telemark-AT sales? Still very inexact.

Not sure how it could be done, really aside from anecdotal evidence and breaking out individual avalanche fatality reports that specifically address non-releaseable bindings.

http://avalanche.state.co.us/acc/acc_stats.php

Although it doesn't break down skiing into AT vs telemark.

[TeleThor]

I don't like armchair QBing, but for fuck's sake, no beacon?!!!?? with this year's snowpack? Even on a "good" year, going outside the resort without a beacon is a potential suicide mission. Most of us probably don't need this post as if you're in this sub-forum you'll most likely be wearing beacons, but I'm just baffled that a supposed local headed out there with no beacon given the current conditions.

[getoutside]

Our gopro utube facebook look at me society encourages it. This year is not the year to push it. Learn to mellow out, throttle back, and observe your surroundings.

^^ great post. this societal change is definitely a factor. some people seem more interested in reporting/showing vid of their rad lines than actually being out there, enjoying it all and taking it all in. don't get my wrong, love the stoke as much as the next bloke but when i'm out there, not thinking did i get enough video, did i take the right photo and how fast can i get it online. i'm thinking about how lucky i am to be in this environment and just try to soak it all up. let's squeeze as much as we can out of this lemon we call life. rip tim. be safe.

[wasatchcrawler]

this societal change is definitely a factor. some people seem more interested in reporting/showing vid of their rad lines than actually being out there, enjoying it all and taking it all in. don't get my wrong, love the stoke as much as the next bloke but when i'm out there, not thinking did i get enough video, did i take the right photo and how fast can i get it online. i'm thinking about how lucky i am to be in this environment and just try to soak it all up. let's squeeze as much as we can out of this lemon we call life.

Exactly. Like those punks that tied that rope swing on Corona Arch and think its so rad that they got the vid on TV oooh bitch'in look at me swinging. Can't these self promoting jackasses just enjoy nature as it is without a "like" on there facebook page about there insignificant activity.

[4-TEEF'S Ghost]

10+ years ago I had a few season's passes at the Canyons and rode this very line often. I NEVER considered it backcountry. I was too stupid to understand that concept properly.

I wish people had to sign out at the 9990 gate. Name, contact and check a yes/no box for "no beacon/avi gear"





Full report: http://utahavalanchecenter.org/accid...h_draw_2232012

[Hey Diddle Diddle]

The problem with a checkout signout system at Canyons is that way more people duck ropes than go through the gate. You expect this from the kids but their are plenty of middle aged rope duckers with day passes flapping. Canyons patrol enforces when they can but they are woefully understaffed and what do you do when you pull a pass on the Park City ridgeline. Are you going to escort them to the base. Resort management is not interested in stopping the violations because easy sidecountry powder access is a big reason why they sell tickets.

[Jethro]

The problem with a checkout signout system at Canyons is that way more people duck ropes than go through the gate. You expect this from the kids but their are plenty of middle aged rope duckers with day passes flapping. Canyons patrol enforces when they can but they are woefully understaffed and what do you do when you pull a pass on the Park City ridgeline. Are you going to escort them to the base. Resort management is not interested in stopping the violations because easy sidecountry powder access is a big reason why they sell tickets.

I only know the boundary policy of my local hills. We can duck any boundary rope to forest service land as long as the Forest service allows it. There are gates, but they are not mandatory access points. When re-entering the ski area, you must enter into an open run. Are the rules at Utah resorts different from this?

[donkeykong]

I don't like armchair QBing, but for fuck's sake, no beacon?!!!?? with this year's snowpack? Even on a "good" year, going outside the resort without a beacon is a potential suicide mission. Most of us probably don't need this post as if you're in this sub-forum you'll most likely be wearing beacons, but I'm just baffled that a supposed local headed out there with no beacon given the current conditions.

Couldn't have said it better myself. It's extremely sad, but for a local that supposedly knows the terrain and the dangers of backcountry travel, I can't say he didn't have it coming. For the out of towner who sees the terrain from the lift and gets out there for maybe a couple laps for the week they are there, yeah they'll most likely make it out. But if you're going out there every day, with no gear, in a year like this, that's just squarely stacking the odds against you.

I don't know if he died from trauma, but it really bothers me to think if he could have been saved by having a beacon and getting located faster. Really sad. Vibes

[skifishbum]

Ya see the gearless statics waitin to happen rollin out the gates all the time there and b right on.
Used to bother me a lot to the point of comin off as big of a fucktard as akpm.
after so many yeah yeahs or stfu old man looks I don't bother much anymore. Been doing the ignore and partner beacon check subliminal thing a bit lately.
The couple that died on square top were my pops neighbors for 10+ years awesome people.
He was dive master supreme with all the certs owned a shop etc.
High danger, no gear and skied it simultaneously.
The 05 boarder was supposedly a snow cat guide with beacon and gear in the car
not sure why some people don't get or understand or choose to ignore the risks.
I think Rob Story wrote one of his shitty articles for outside and blamed powder fever
not sure much more can be done in reguards to edjucating people like the know before you go program and free avvy talks perhaps the You can die sign needs to give you a slight shock of pain as a reminder.
Wasatch crawlers post nailed it imo.
Moose pits rings true to my experiences
and tarzanmans is spot on waiting for the report or 1st hand account that sheds some light on how/ the group dynamics that put a party of 8 experts in a multi burial/ fatality situation. No disrespect but seems a
lot easier to talk about how your airbag saved you rather than how that group came to be in that situation in the 1st place.
Judging from the Uac report the other 8 nearby I think they ment slack or side country
travlers without gear intiated the best rescue effort they could.
Vibes to all involved
learn from yours and others mistakes and encourage others to treat the sidecountry with the same respect as backcountry
and be educated and ready to self rescue your partners should you decide to engage in these risky activities

[Hey Diddle Diddle]

I only know the boundary policy of my local hills. We can duck any boundary rope to forest service land as long as the Forest service allows it. There are gates, but they are not mandatory access points. When re-entering the ski area, you must enter into an open run. Are the rules at Utah resorts different from this?

Canyons is mostly surrounded by private land. Canyons borders forest service land at the top of 9990. The forest service boundary is close to the ridgeline and rope duckers heading for red pine bowl and squaretop are ducking directly onto FS land. I do believe you would have a legal argument you were being denied access to public lands. I am also pretty sure the patroller would not be impressed by your argument. He would say you are not being denied access. There is a backcountry access gate at the top of a short boot hike from the 9990 lift. If you are unwilling to pay this small effort you should take this as your first hint.

[4-TEEF'S Ghost]

I only know the boundary policy of my local hills. We can duck any boundary rope to forest service land as long as the Forest service allows it. There are gates, but they are not mandatory access points. When re-entering the ski area, you must enter into an open run. Are the rules at Utah resorts different from this?

This is exactly the problem. We tell our kids "never duck ropes" but there are MANY ropes that can be ducked. Some ropes at Snowbird are just for warnings. Some are boundaries. Some are closed areas that will open soon. WTF?

[4-TEEF'S Ghost]

Couldn't have said it better myself. It's extremely sad, but for a local that supposedly knows the terrain and the dangers of backcountry travel, I can't say he didn't have it coming. For the out of towner who sees the terrain from the lift and gets out there for maybe a couple laps for the week they are there, yeah they'll most likely make it out. But if you're going out there every day, with no gear, in a year like this, that's just squarely stacking the odds against you.

I don't know if he died from trauma, but it really bothers me to think if he could have been saved by having a beacon and getting located faster. Really sad. Vibes

My wife saw the body. He was heavily bruised on one side of his face/head, leading me to think trauma. On a positive note, many of his organs organs where harvested for donation

He didn't have a clue about "the dangers of backcountry travel" He was too poor to grow up skiing/boarding so at 24 he was still learning. He was by no means "going out there every day". It was a sunny awesome day and he took one run in that bowl at 3 p.m.

Anybody who has been to that area knows EXACTLY what happened and is probably surprised it doesn't happen more often. When it's sunny and there are already tracks there, the skull and crossbones sign means NOTHING to most people. The same sign is there 24/7 and never changes. Do you pay attention to "black ice" highway signs in the middle of summer?

Obviously Tim made poor choices and that got him killed it is also obvious that the 9990 gate needs some changes if we want people to stop dieing. How about a solar powered FM radio pushing the forecast out a little speaker?

I bet Tim had plenty of shop and pro deals offered to him. I bet he had no option to buy avy gear at a discount. That's the way it usually works in a ski town.

[skifishbum]

I bet Tim had plenty of shop and pro deals offered to him. I bet he had no option to buy avy gear at a discount. That's the way it usually works in a ski town.

actually no soli patrol/snow safety was really good at encouraging the group of shop rats and skibum employees to be educated loan us beacons and provide us with proforms for avvy gear.
they did avvy awareness programs we even did a few mountain rescue scenarios.
the uac does an awesome job with free awareness seminars.
While the price of gear and certifications is by no way cheap there is a great attempt being made to educate imo
not sure why
YOU CAN DIE
doesn't mean the same to everyone
risk tolerances would be my guess

[sfotex]

I remember when I was in Montana and met up with a coworker for a drink after work. His kid stopped by, early twenties and we started talking about snow stuff, he was a sledder and he started talking about setting off a huge slide the weekend before and how he outran it. I asked about beacons and stuff, and he was like no way, that shit is for pussies, I've outran like ten slides, its no big deal. I guess it's the age and experience sometimes? He had a $20k sled, so a beacon and class was no big deal for him.

Fuck, why would someone start to smoke cigs with what we know now?
Why do people have unprotected sex with someone they just met at a bar/party?

The 'are you beeping' signs were paid for by a family that lost their loved one in an avy:

The Are You Beeping? campaign was funded by the Forest Service with a donation from the family of Atilio Giorgio Cremaschi Yavar, a snowboard instructor from Chile who was living in Utah when he died in an avalanche in the backcountry near Brighton Ski Resort in April 2006.

You're never going to be able to save everyone, but you can try to save a few. Going after the 9990 gate might solve a short term problem, but I think using accidents like this to help educate and get the word out are maybe the only positive thing that can come out of this.

[zartagen]

Someone mentioned what can be done at that gate? Maybe a tribute to those that have passed on that face..

I've been thinking the same thing. It can serve as a memorial to the lost, as well as a very clear warning that your fate could be the same if you don't have your shit together. I think a picture of a real person that died just beyond the gate would hit home a lot more than a warning sign.

[moose pit]

i be drunk.


this thread should die.

no beacon = nochance when shit goese wrong

I don't give two shits if your a poor ass mother fucker or not. My first becaon was a socond hand piece. I still learned how it works and why, as a poor student.

[Buzzworthy]