goretex delamination question

[Bud]

None of my climbing/skiing partners have had as many problems with goretex jackets through the years as I've had and I'm curious if the delamination issue I repeatedly have is at all common.

The issue is that regardless of brand, regardless of jacket type, my jackets fail at the shoulders and back within three years. I hand wash them with wool-lite a couple times a year and retreat with Nikwax, but even though the DWR is retreated, just like clockwork within three years the jacket delams and develops huge areas that wet out almost immediately when I stick it in the shower....after being in the shower, I can hold the jacket up to a bright light and see big areas that are more translucent than others where the laminate is just toast and moisture is just flowing through.

I've had this happen with a Moonstone 3-layer jacket in the 90's, two Marmot Alpinist jackets in late 90's and early 00's, an Arcteryx 3-layer, an Arcteryx paclite and OR paclite jacket most recently....all of them fail the exact same way. I've also had a Marmot membrain jacket die within two years of use just the same way.

Fortunately most of the companies have always been very generous with warranty issues, so I've usually managed to get at least one replacement after the initial purchase.... anyways..just curious if delam'ing is all that common from the regular abrasion of pack straps or am I just a freak whose sweat has the ability to melt goretex.

[GeezerSteve]

I've had 20+ Gore-Tex garments and every one of them has delammed (except for one pair of supergaiters) and leaked within two years of use. I tracked down a Gore engineer who privately told me that Gore-Tex does not like some people's skin oils. He said that Gore would not go public with that and that he would deny telling me that if confronted.

[skimaxpower]

1) Warranty, warranty, warranty.
2) You're washing your jacket, but do you wash your pack? The dirt is hiding in the backpack straps and it's grinding into your shell.
3) Some companies (Bergans and North Face comes to mind) reinforce the shoulders on jackets with a rubber layer to prevent this. Consider another brand?

[PNWbrit]

just like clockwork within three years

1) Warranty, warranty, warranty.

Shit wears out.

A coat is not for life.

[Bud]

thanks guys.... good point about giving the pack straps a bath from time to time.

and i'll take a look around for an eVent jacket to try...glad to hear that might be holding up better.

Brit- the reason I was asking was to find out just how common this is....as my usual skiing buddies are all carrying the same amount of crap in their backpacks and getting out as much as me, yet their jackets don't ever seem to have this kind of failure.

[DudeLebowSKI]

I would guess that because the symptoms are repeatable, it's either what Big Steve said or whatever detergent you use on you midlayer/base layer.

[GeezerSteve]

My Gore-Tex stuff has delammed in various places, usually in places that are not exposed to "grinding," e.g., sleeves, thighs. I am diligent to do everything the manufacturer recommends, e.g., frequent cleaning with tech wash, low dryer settings*, refreshing DWR after it wears off. *Note the new eVent tags recommend hang drying.

As Brit says, stuff wears out. For me, failure <2 seasons is a bit too early for a $400 garment. Crossing fingers that the eVent stuff really holds up better.

If you really want something closer to actually waterproof that seldom delams and don't mind trading off some breatheability, buy a $100-$150 urethane coated jackeet (e.g., Marmot Precip + 50 other PU costed stuff) every other year. You might have more condensation but you'll stay drier from the outside with PU than with PTFE.

[jmedslc]

Hmmm Woolite? is that a liquid detergent? that could be a significant contributor to your problems. Typically a w/b fabric prefers a no-detergent soap based wash.

[PNWbrit]

M
As Brit says, stuff wears out. For me, failure <2 seasons is a bit too early for a $400 garment.

And if people didn't try and scam the warranty system to get just plain old worn out shit replaced for free the $400 might be lower?

For me ~two years and shell is delaming at hips and shoulders from pack straps. Cuffs and high wear areas are badly worn and re-proofing with nixwax is a losing strategery..

[GeezerSteve]

Yeah, no doubt that a big chunk of Gore-Tex pricing is due to undue warranty burdens and marketing, i.e., well-crafted lies to persuade the public that Gore-Tex is actually waterproof after a season of use by somone who actually spends time in adverse weather. PTFE does what it does better than anything else and I'll continue to use PTFE garments for many applications, but Gore's claims of "waterproof for life" are goddam lies.

[pesto]

Not sure about washing with Woolite this lists it as something to avoid when washing waterproof breathable clothing. http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/arti...bric+care.html

All of the goretex clothing I've seen have recomended using powder detergent.

[frytown]

Are you totally sure that the fabric is actually leaking through? The reason I ask is that just about all WB fabrics have pretty weak DWR's on them. So when they're newish, water beads up and give the impression of Waterproofness. Later, with use, the DWR is long gone, but the PTFE is still bonded to the inner face of the fabric (with a mesh, or knit over that) and doing it's job. The problem often is that the inner face of the PTFE has a PU on it, and when the face fabric is wetted out, it makes the laminate feel clammy and damp, even if it's not officially wet.
An additional bummer is that when the face fabric is all soaked it messes with the breathability of the laminate - so body derived moisture piles up on the inner face of the laminate (where the mesh, or knit is). So, often it's not really leaking or worn out.

Don't get me wrong, it still sucks, and the DWRs currently in the supply chain are not rad - due to some toxicity issues with the stuff that used to be used. And my explanation does nothing to make it better. Not sure why I typed this.....

[Bud]

i doubt the issue is the method of cleaning the jacket(s) as my wife's Arcteryx jacket is used just as often as mine and cleaned/nikwaxed on the same schedule, yet her Theta SL is going on six years and it still working perfectly.... so for some folks gore laminates do last a pretty long time, and I guess for others they die sooner. But I do have some techwash brand stuff around the house and I'll use that next time.

[whyturn]

Be sure to use nikwash or similar. Clean pack and base payers with nikwash wool. But gore warranty is good. Also buy from BC.com and no issues provided its not wear and tear.

[DudeLebowSKI]

Yeah, no doubt that a big chunk of Gore-Tex pricing is due to undue warranty burdens and marketing, i.e., well-crafted lies to persuade the public that Gore-Tex is actually waterproof after a season of use by somone who actually spends time in adverse weather. PTFE does what it does better than anything else and I'll continue to use PTFE garments for many applications, but Gore's claims of "waterproof for life" are goddam lies.

I don't think GoreTex has any choice but to run the most all encompassing warranty possible. I believe that a huge part of their company is supplying material to replace heart valves. You can't be replacing heart valves and then market a coat warranty that has any stipulations on 'life of the product'.

[GeezerSteve]

Heart valves vs. garments is apples vs. oranges

frytown, I'm certain the PTFE is failing and letting rain pass through. No doubt about it. I aint talking about "clammy." I'm talkin' saturated in rain water.

[PNWbrit]

I don't think GoreTex has any choice but to run the most all encompassing warranty possible. I believe that a huge part of their company is supplying material to replace heart valves. You can't be replacing heart valves and then market a coat warranty that has any stipulations on 'life of the product'.

I have some GE light bulbs that have differing warranty from GE jet engines.

[DudeLebowSKI]

I have some GE light bulbs that have differing warranty from GE jet engines.

Haha..good point but I think 'GoreTex' as an actual product is in fact used in heart valves. As in, it's the exact same shit. I could be wrong though.

I am not arguing that people should abuse warranty at all. I am just saying that Goretex as a company doesn't have much choice in offering any other type of warranty so I can see why they market it that way.

[GeezerSteve]

Yeah, they are both PTFE but hardly the "exact same shit." One is a thin membrane laminated to fabric. The other comes in sheet and tube, and is sewn in. Human tissue doesn't need to be waterproof and thus medical Gore membrane need not be waterproof. It doesn't follow that making a PTFE heart valve compels the manufacturer to offer a lifetime waterproofness warranty on a coat that uses PTFE laminate in a completely different form for a wholly distinct application. The fact, as Brit points out, is that a substantial part of the purchase price for Gore-Tex garments is warranty costs. The warranty works for W.L. Gore because the vast majority of Gore-Tex jackets are sold in shopping mall stores to people who don't subject them to adverse weather conditions nor sweat a drop in them, e.g., the 60 y.o. Asian woman in Vancouver, BC. who never strays farther than 200 meters from their SUV, the trophy wife with fake tits who skis two green groomer runs at Deer Valley before retiring to the condo for the day, the crack-selling brotha donning the North Face jacket in Brooklyn when it's dry and 58F, etc.

[DudeLebowSKI]

Yeah, they are both PTFE. But it doesn't follow that making a PTFE heart valve compels the manufacturer to offer a lifetime warranty on a coat that uses PTFE laminate in a completely different form for a wholly distinct application. The fact, as Brit points out, is that a substantial part of the purchase price for Gore-Tex garments is warranty costs. The warranty works for W.L. Gore because the vast majority of Gore-Tex jackets are sold in shopping mall stores to people who don't subject them to adverse weather conditions nor sweat a drop in them, e.g., 60 y.o. Asian women in Vancouver, BC. who never farther than 200 meters from their SUV, trophy wives who ski two runs at Deer Valley before retiring to the condo for the day, crack-selling brotha with the North Face jacket in Brooklyn when it's dry and 58F, etc.

Agreed. So if you are in fact paying for a lifetime waterproof warranty then you'd be stupid not to use it if your garment is in their words 'no longer water proof'. Also, what does 'Asian' have to do with anything?

From my experience, my 2l and 3l Goretex garments out perform my non-Goretex garments by a landslide victory. This includes HyVent/eVent products as well as numerous Mountain Hardware pieces that use their inhouse brand Conduit. It may not last a lifetime but in the present it definitely outperfoms my other options.

[GeezerSteve]

You just called me stupid. If a product is threadworn from whacking brush for 4 hard seasons I won't seek a warranty replacement. IMV, those who do are abusing the warranty. And every time you buy a Gore-Tex product, you are subsidizing the dirtbags who trade in 10 y.o. Gore-Tex coats for new ones.

HyVent and Conduit are PU coatings, not PTFE laminates. Apples vs. oranges. Not sure what you mean by "outperform," but the objective evidence compels the conclusion that good PU-coated fabric is closer to being actually waterproof than a PTFE laminate fabric. PTFE laminates breathe better, of course. So, it begs your definition of "outperform." If you are talking about breatheability, eVent kicks ass on Gore.

[DudeLebowSKI]

I am just saying....if you agreed to pay the inflated price which you've outlined is because of the Warranty, why wouldn't you use it? Or why wouldn't you buy another product in the first place?

By outperform I mean, I enjoy wearing it more becasue it does what it says it does...provides waterproof protection as well as breathes and is durable within reason. Simple as that. I didn't realize 'outperform' required any other definition other than my satisfaction.

[jfost]

...Also, what does 'Asian' have to do with anything?...

that is the ethnicity of the 60 y/o woman in BigSteve's example.

The woman at Deer Valley with fake tits is obviously white, so he didn't need to specify in that case.

[jfost]

Heart valves vs. garments is apples vs. oranges

frytown, I'm certain the PTFE is failing and letting rain pass through. No doubt about it. I aint talking about "clammy." I'm talkin' saturated in rain water.

so this is decidedly NOT the "clogged pores" letting sweat/condensate accumulate issue?

IMHO, if the membrane fails, it is on them - they say it is "waterproof for life"... I've had jackets clog up before, but always were impermeable from outside rain.

[DudeLebowSKI]

that is the ethnicity of the 60 y/o woman in BigSteve's example.

The woman at Deer Valley with fake tits is obviously white, so he didn't need to specify in that case.

Seriously dude. That made me laugh out loud in my office.