Bad Grind... solutions?

[gpcharles]

I took a pair of skis to a shop with both a belt grinder and a stone grinder, and requested specifically a stone grind, and for them not to simply run it over the belt. I knew the skis were beat up, and was willing to walk out if they said they didn't want to put them over their stone. I understand it... the stone grinders are expensive, and they don't want to waste the stone on beat up skis...

Despite my willingness to back off, they said they were totally fine running it through the stone grinder. They quoted me a price of $30, and I thought it seemed fair, so left them with the shop.

A few hours later I came back and the shop had gone to town on the skis with the belt sander only. They took off a ton of material with the belt, and left the bases really rough (almost like sandpaper itself). I asked them why the did the belt sander, and there was just a bunch of confused faces. They also said they didn't want to run the skis through the stone grinder because they were roughed up, and figured a belt sand should be fine.

I argued for a minute that I had SPECIFICALLY asked for NO BELT SAND, but what was done was done, and I had to get the skis ready to slide...

So I took them home and brushed the HECK out of them with a wire brush... several coats of wax.. brushing brushing and more brushing... and now after all of this work I am just barely starting to get the "hairies" to tamp down... the skis are still slow as heck though.

What can be done at home to fix this, or do I need to go find a place that will do what I ask and shell out again?

Thanks!

Greg

[arild]

I´m just guessing that you are left with a concave base, and any really practical way to fix this at home doesn´t exist. I´d go back to the shop and demand they give you a stonegrind to fix their fuckup. A free tune up in the future shouldn´t be out of the question, as the fucktards who did the job effectively shortened the life of your precious rock skis.

[SuperGaper]

Seconded- I can see some belt work first on a hammered pair of skis, but come on, finish the tune.

The stone serves 3 purposes, all of which you need-

1) Polishes the P-Tex base, especially after the belt roughed it up.
2) Imparts structure that makes the ski glide, often overlooked but very important.
3) Flattens base, the belt can conform to imperfections in the base like concavity, while
the stone always is flat.

If those guys handed you back a belted, furry ski and thought that was cool, I would be looking
for another shop. I have never heard of a belt only tune, except for snowboards!

[vanisle]

Aside from the shop fucking you over
the easiest way to clean those fuzzy bases up is to drag a sharp exacto blade over the base at about a 45 degree angle.

It will take multiple passes and a fair bit of pressure but you should be left with a pretty clean base with a passable structure.

[splat]

I can't stand shops that project the bullshit that they don't want to wear down their stone as if it's the holy grail. It might as well be the blarney stone. They get like what - 15,000-20,000 grinds on a stone? More? SuperGaper - do you guys count?

It's edges that actually wear down the stone the most, not bases, so a base bevel before stonegrinding will minimize the stone wear. Sounds like they didn't want to base bevel your skis prior to grinding.

Now that we have a stone grinder and are doing our own grinds, I was just in one of the shops that used to do our grinds last night reaming them for their sheer laziness in the past in doing grinds on our skis; insomuch as I told them the skis would be coming in rough so they should keep a fresh, very lightly dressed 100 grit belt to get them flat before running on a dressed 120 or 150, then on the stone. They agreed to that. So they get a 100 grit belt and, out of force of habit and stupidity, dressed the belt down to about a 200 grit so that it couldn't get the skis perfectly flat before putting them over the stone. So glad to be doing our own stonegrinds now.

[skimaxpower]

Seconded- I can see some belt work first on a hammered pair of skis, but come on, finish the tune.

Agreed. Belt to expose some fresh base and remove the small scratches, Stone to finish the job.

They got you halfway there and quit. Blueballs are not acceptable. They should finish the job. I'm guessing you got the back-up shop rat. Go back another day and explain it to the shop manager.

[DropCliffsNotBombs]

I think that a lot of people don't understand how belts and stones are designed to work together. Or they think that we either use a belt OR a stone grinder depending on the cost of the tune. We have customers that need several core shots p-texed but refuse to let us finish up the tune on the machine.?! Or they want "just an edge and wax" on hammered skis and think that wax is used to fill core shots, etc,...

But I digress... Yes, only sanding a ski is not acceptable as a "tune."

[gpcharles]

Aside from the shop fucking you over
the easiest way to clean those fuzzy bases up is to drag a sharp exacto blade over the base at about a 45 degree angle.

It will take multiple passes and a fair bit of pressure but you should be left with a pretty clean base with a passable structure.

is this for real? i can't tell if this is facetious or serious...sorry and thanks

[splat]

He's serious. He is a Base Fix Master from Planet Dirtbag Ninja.

vanisle is the mang.

[gpcharles]

great to know. thanks. so much sarcasm font in other forums, sometimes it can be hard to tell.

[Chugachjed]

Razor blades work wonders. Yea you only hour half a tune. When I was a shop monkey SOP was base repair -»belt -»bevel -»stone -» wax. That's a proper tune. They didn't do you wrong by hitting the sticks with the sander but by not finishing the job. I would chew their asses and make them do it right then find a new shop.

[AlpiNord]

What can be done at home to fix this, or do I need to go find a place that will do what I ask and shell out again?

Thanks!

Greg

For DIY solutions:

A SkiVisions File Flattener uses a crosscut bastard file and leaves a nice finish. The SkiVisions Base Flattener and structuring planer uses a steel blade and structuring stones. Both will remove the hairies. FWIW, not to justify the shop's actions, but I've flattened and structured skis in the past with sandpaper, followed by steel brushing & scraping with excellent results.....then set the base bevel.

[Cayuse]

For DIY solutions:

A SkiVisions File Flattener uses a crosscut bastard file and leaves a nice finish. The SkiVisions Base Flattener and structuring planer uses a steel blade and structuring stones. Both will remove the hairies. FWIW, not to justify the shop's actions, but I've flattened and structured skis in the past with sandpaper, followed by steel brushing & scraping with excellent results.....then set the base bevel.

^^^^ Both SkiVisions products work and work well. Might not be as fast as a stone grind and can't give you a pattern the way a machine can but they put a great finish on your bases that should be fine unless your timing down to hundredths.

[XXX-er]

Sounds like they should put them on the stone grinder for you OR they shouldn't have taken the skis and did half a job so you gotta remove the hairies yourself if you can't convince them they should

I took skis into a shop and they forgot to put them in the stone grinder not once but twice, then they got real defensive when I laughed ( drunk on comp beer) at them, these were not rocket scientists and I suspect your shop have the same focus group of employees

BTW hairies were the hot setup at the olympics ...for the xc classic grip

[ajdemo76]

They need to fix their jacked "tune" they gave you. Belts just prep the base for the final (stone) finish. To get rid of the "hairs" on your base from them just running the belt, you can try ironing on wax and scraping it while hot. The hot wax well help the fibers stand up and scraping them off immediately with a plastic scraper may help a little. Ultimately, they need to redo this and run a stone pattern. In my own shop I'll base prep with the belt after p-tex, run the stone at a high rpm and run the ski a few times to get it perfectly flat, then run it at the normal rpm to lay down the correct pattern. Then after comes the edging and waxing.

[charles martel]

Sorry you've gone through this and it's pretty clear the shop guys are idiots. Grinding skis will not affect the stone in any negative way, other than it may need to be dressed (cleaned off, essentially). But, it will have to be dressed even grinding skis whose bases are not all chewed up, too. So, what the hell is wrong with the shop you went to, other than they do not know what they are doing?

I had some skis ground last year by a shop and the guy left me really edge high. He made the base concave. This makes the skis harder or nearly impossible to turn. Couple that with a linear (harder to turn), as opposed to a cross-hatched (easier to turn) structure pattern, and the skis were never the same.

I took the skis 125 miles away to have them re-ground, which corrected the fuck-up, but that cost a whole tank of gas, a day away from work, plus paying for the re-grind and tune.

Tuning skis, including a new grind, is based on the physics of how the ski works. People who are good at it, cost more, but are worth it, by far. Just having the machine and programming it at the beginning of the season by the company that made it is not enough.

I just had SkiMD do my Head Monster 102s, which tended to rail. The base bevel came from the factory at 3 degrees, which means the skis will rail and will only turn at higher speeds. They are now set at.5 base and 3 side. They are fine in all sorts of snow, from ice, to soft, to slush, to pow.

Find someone else to correct the mistake. Even gouged skis can be salvaged and used for years to come.

[SuperGaper]

Sorry you've gone through this and it's pretty clear the shop guys are idiots. Grinding skis will not affect the stone in any negative way, other than it may need to be dressed (cleaned off, essentially). But, it will have to be dressed even grinding skis whose bases are not all chewed up, too. So, what the hell is wrong with the shop you went to, other than they do not know what they are doing?

I had some skis ground last year by a shop and the guy left me really edge high. He made the base concave. This makes the skis harder or nearly impossible to turn. Couple that with a linear (harder to turn), as opposed to a cross-hatched (easier to turn) structure pattern, and the skis were never the same.

I took the skis 125 miles away to have them re-ground, which corrected the fuck-up, but that cost a whole tank of gas, a day away from work, plus paying for the re-grind and tune.

Tuning skis, including a new grind, is based on the physics of how the ski works. People who are good at it, cost more, but are worth it, by far. Just having the machine and programming it at the beginning of the season by the company that made it is not enough.

I just had SkiMD do my Head Monster 102s, which tended to rail. The base bevel came from the factory at 3 degrees, which means the skis will rail and will only turn at higher speeds. They are now set at.5 base and 3 side. They are fine in all sorts of snow, from ice, to soft, to slush, to pow.

Find someone else to correct the mistake. Even gouged skis can be salvaged and used for years to come.

How would a stone produce concavity? Multiple high speed, high weight passes that heat the base and then
cause the p-tex to shrink upon cooling?

Super fine linear is pretty easy to slide around, while I find the deep crosses, with a big interruption a lot
more "edgy", not "slidey" feeling. That is why you see those on race skis, while pow skis have the fine linear.

.5 and 3 on a Head 102? That sounds pretty like a pretty unforgiving set up! I would roll with 2 and 2 my self, so
you can get out of turn if you need to, that ski is plenty strong.

FWIW we have 2 factory programs that we use sometimes, fine linear and medium cross for spring, plus about 5-6
more we made up, including our go to for about 80 percent of conditions in Jackson. We call it #21.

[ACHTUNG]

yes, razor blade the hairs.

[charles martel]

How would a stone produce concavity? Multiple high speed, high weight passes that heat the base and then
cause the p-tex to shrink upon cooling?

Super fine linear is pretty easy to slide around, while I find the deep crosses, with a big interruption a lot
more "edgy", not "slidey" feeling. That is why you see those on race skis, while pow skis have the fine linear.

.5 and 3 on a Head 102? That sounds pretty like a pretty unforgiving set up! I would roll with 2 and 2 my self, so
you can get out of turn if you need to, that ski is plenty strong.

FWIW we have 2 factory programs that we use sometimes, fine linear and medium cross for spring, plus about 5-6
more we made up, including our go to for about 80 percent of conditions in Jackson. We call it #21.

I agree, super fine linear lets the ski roll on edge to carve or slide. But a heavy grooved linear this guy put on locked the skis straight.

.5 and 3 on the Heads works fine and, at least for me, a lot more versatile than the 3 base and 1 side they came with.

I just called my buddy, a former good tech, who tells me that if you don't know what you're doing, you're gonna screw up the grind and tune.