Why are Civil Engineers so bad?

[nickwm21]

Serious question. Why are civil engineers so bad.

Begin Rant/

I've been in the construction business for not long, 5 years. Yet I am unable to meet a civil engineer that is better than horrible.

Structural Engineers are always the smartest in the room. They come up with an engineered solution to a legitimate problem in 2 minutes. Sometimes they even come in the form of good looking ladies.

Electrical and Mechanical Engineers do their job, even if english is their second language.

Architects normally know what they are doing. To get to the point of actually designing something as an arch, you spent a decade infront of that lonely black CAD screen, learning.

I understand why the "design" professionals suck. The landscape architects and interior designers are not supposed to know anything about constructability or cost, just how it looks and "feels".

But the civils... Why are they so bad? All they have to do is make everything slope at 2% and pick from a book of regional/standard details. And if you ask them to design with BIM, its like you insulted them. Just imagine if they modeled their work in 3D. Especially since most the problems in the average civil design are clashes between two civil components. That is the most ridiculous part too... they really only have to coordinate with themselves, compared with say an electrical engineer, who has to coordinate with the architectural, mechanical, plumbing, and structural.

/End Rant

Any TGR CEs care to defend themselves....

[Skipig25]

nope. I will agree, from an architecture POV.

there must be something we don't know

[Tippster]

...The landscape architects and interior designers are not supposed to know anything about constructability or cost, just how it looks and "feels".

You need 5 more years, kid. That's retarded.

[cmsummit]

Maybe you've just worked with bad Civils? And this statement is just flat-out FALSE:

they really only have to coordinate with themselves, compared with say an electrical engineer, who has to coordinate with the architectural, mechanical, plumbing, and structural.

....

Civils do more coordination with structural engineers and architects than you obviously realize. Well, at least I do.

[Crass3000]

Not to knock on Civil Engineers cause it's obvioulsy not an easy degree to get but it's generally accepted that it's the easiest engineering degree. That being said, being a project manager and having to babysit all the subcontractors might make a good CE look bad because everybody else is screwing up. Sometimes projects go smooth but there area always unexpected problems with any type of engineering as you can't always predict everything especially when part of engineering if keeping the cost down on things.

Edit: And isn't a structural engineer just a more specialized civil engineer?

[cmsummit]

Why are contractors so bad? I've seen contractors try to pass off some ridiculous excuses for "constructed to project specifications" work in an effort to save a buck (aka cutting corners).

[OSECS]

Why are contractors so bad? I've seen contractors try to pass off some ridiculous excuses for "constucted to project specifications" work in an effort to save a buck.

That is a nail on the head. I work with some really great contractors, but I've come across guys who cut corners and flat out try to ignore construction documents, or try to make me change required details and then bitch and moan and pull the old well "that's the way we've always done
it". You weed those guys out as quickly as possible. They aren't doing me or the client any good.

[Crass3000]

In any case, the reason engineers exist is to tell contractors how to do things safely and efficiently. There are tons of variables always in play. The average person has no idea how complex things are or can be and would be impossilbe for them to wrap their heads around it. I would imagine that typically includes most of the people on the worksite except the engineers.

[skifishbum]

You need 5 more years, kid. That's retarded.

come on man thats like almost 40 dog years
never had to deal with many enginerds
the ladder and pitched roof thing keeps them geeks on the ground and out of my world
Man i crackin up just visioning the op whippin out the in my experience card

[ak_powder_monkey]

Civil engineering = the bottom of the engineering world... (Although I know a few really good ones) but if you designed sewer systems for a living...

[donkeykong]

Not to knock on Civil Engineers cause it's obvioulsy not an easy degree to get but it's generally accepted that it's the easiest engineering degree.

this. 1234

[back bowl]

A group of engineers are sitting at a bar drinking and discussing religion. The first guy, an electrical engineer, says "God is definitely an electrical engineer. Look at the human nervous system- it's a series of circuits so complex and intricate that we'll never understand how it all works." The second guy is a mechanical engineer. He says "No, god is a mechanical engineer. Look at the human skeletal system- it's nothing but joints and pulleys and made up of fewer parts than are in an Ikea bookshelf, but it is designed with such perfection to allow a huge range and versatility of movement." The third guy is a civil engineer. He looks at the other two and shakes his head. "You're both wrong. God is undoubtably a civil engineer. Who else would run toxic waste and sewer lines right through a recreation area?"

[Beaver]

I won't agree or disagree. As an electrical eng I don't actually have to deal with the civil much at all so can't comment.

How about mechanical engineers who give you their drawings and equipment lists on the day shit is supposed to go out to tender!!! There is an architect I work with regularly who knows of this problem and gives the mechanical eng a deadline 3-4 days earlier than mine.

[GiBo]

Having spent 4 years as a PM in land development, I was responsible for taking the civil's plans and getting them built by a contractor. I thought back to some of the major fuck ups that happened and I would have to say that in every case there was plenty of blame to go on all parties- including me. There are a lot of entities involved in civil work and it's very easy for things to get screwed up. Sure, some civils are better than others, but that can be said for conractors and PMs.

Really though, it all falls on the PM. If your PM is double checking plans and all over the contractor most problems are solved before they happen.

[XavierD]

Civil engineers design targets, the rest design weapons. Can't blaim a guy for not putting a whole lot of effort into something we are gonna destroy somewhere down the line, either with a missle or a bulldozer.
-From the view of an aero/astro enginerd in training who thinks there is not much more enjoyable than blowing up civil engineer's projects.

Oh, and I got accepted to one of the best aero/astro programs in the country but turned down by the civil department across the street, so not sure how the whole civil is a soft option idea stacks up with reallity.

[OSECS]

Oh, and I got accepted to one of the best aero/astro programs in the country but turned down by the civil department across the street, so not sure how the whole civil is a soft option idea stacks up with reallity.

Well I guess one of the schools admissions office fucked up, wonder which one ??? : )

[::: :::]

my experience only, not judging the whole group:
as an architect, i'm sad to say I have to agree

i can count on one hand the number of reliable civil engineers i've worked with. most have been pretty lazy about documentation IME. maybe that's a culture clash from the perspective of the group that draws way too much...

but to their credit, they can't claim the worst change orders for bad docs. I've had more expensive change orders from my mechanical teammates

YMMV

[DJSapp]

Nick,

It takes all kinds and they all must coordinate together. Civil just gets the bag of crap trying to make everything work together within the structure, project site, whatever. There are plenty of dumbshit EE and ME's out there that don't get it, as well as ivory SE's who have never set foot on a jobsite. Civil dumbshits are just more visible, because their problems don't pop up until you start building, and then the crew gets hung up while the guy spins in a circle trying to figure something out without screwing the next guy. Any heavy civil contractor out there (myself included) believes that there isn't an EE in the country that can write a spec that makes sense or works, and every single project needs the entire electrical section changed out before anything gets built.

Further, on the ivory tower side you must be a CE before you can take your SE or Geotech test, and land surveyors are totally separate but typically began their training as a CE, so this diminishes the 'smart' civil pool (I am NOT inferring that LS are smart, just that they were part of the pool). We just have special categories for them, since CE is a jack-of-all-trades engineer. Earth, concrete, steel, welding, water, wastewater, air pollution, fluid mechanics, land survey, etc. Too many topics to be a master in all of them.

To the other haters: the real challenges of CE come during construction, not final design. The best engineers I know all work for heavy contractors (or are solely 3rd party designers for contractors) and the worst stay on the design side or in government. These people dream up a hundred different ways to build something that has never been done before, and they're purpose built for one use only. Then they go do something completely different. EE's and ME's cut and paste for 20 years once they've figured it out.



Hugs, a heavy civil contractor PM and Civil PE.

[DJSapp]

Nick just curious, what are you building? The sidewalk and C&G CE's are typically the most junior guys out there, and I'm inferring that's where your issues are...

[::: :::]

It takes all kinds and they all must coordinate together.

QFT!

There are plenty of dumbshit EE and ME's out there that don't get it, as well as ivory SE's who have never set foot on a jobsite. Civil dumbshits are just more visible

and i'm sure there are some dumbshit architects

To the other haters: the real challenges of CE come during construction, not final design.

Yes (totally agree - contractors get left holding the bag of responsibility of construction), and

no (i've had some CE's who just dismissively say "there's the existing survey - we'll work out the rest in construction". that bugs the shit out of me, especially since we're trying to bring all the design consultants to the table to provide more sustainable wholistic solutions for clients)

[exsparky]

I've noticed the worst out of state prints come from texas for some reason, followed by florida but no where close to texas.

Some firms are flat out bad and some just a have a few bad people in them. Few are consistently good, as long as they don't fight you on corrections, I don't mind anymore.

Spec books seem to just be there to justify stupidity and were written by some guy that died in 1983.

[slim]

Civil engineering = the bottom of the engineering world... (Although I know a few really good ones) but if you designed sewer systems for a living...

Aren't you like fifteen years old? What the fuck do you know?

[slim]

You get what you pay for. I've worked with shit heads on all levels. All trades. All specialties. Design and construction. Private sector and public sector. As a PE, who works client side (and in government... DJ Sapp you fucking prick) I end up holding the bag for all the fuck ups and I've had them from every participant in the design and construction process. They all fuck up and each have their own challenges associated with un-fucking it up. In the end, it's about carefully hiring your design team and not getting cheap. Design from existing topo and assume you can figure it out in the field? Sounds like the owner didn't want to pay for additional survey.

I will say the worst to deal with is contractors cutting corners. What other industry do you have to hire and pay for a third party to ensure the contractor actually completes what they are contracturally bound to do? I've met some of the best people I've ever worked with in construction but I've also met the biggest and most outright scum bags.

[Hugh Conway]

EE's and ME's cut and paste for 20 years once they've figured it out.

half of the Chinese engineers working here cut and paste their way through school

[OSECS]

half of the Chinese engineers working here cut and paste their way through school

Well, they are known for reverse engineering.................