The neoshell thread

[NickAdams]

I have the Mountain Hardware Quasar neoshell pullover. Also have a Rab eVent shell.

Breathability of the neoshell seems very similar to my Rab eVent shell. (both are very good.) I haven't done any scientific tests, but both neoshell and eVent seem better than g-tex I've used, and are close enough to each other that I really can't tell the difference.

[sfotex]

I have the Mountain Hardware Quasar neoshell pullover.

Isn't that made with DryQ fabric?

[MrSmith]

I wasn't aware that MH was using neoshell in anything. It'd be cool if they were.

[Truenilbog]

MHW Quasar is Dry Q Elite, which is very similar to eVent, not Neoshell.

[JRainey]

Dry Q is Event, GE allows companies to rebrand the membrane.

[neufox47]

anybody ever try using NO base layer under their soft shell ?

At a recent all night rando event since I was going to be real close to a warm base lodge with extra gear I decided to try no jersey under a Patagonia Ascentionist soft shell since the merino wool base layers were getting wet anyhow

I found NO jersey in a soft shell more comfortable than wearing a wet jersey under a soft shell

That is how I always skin. Well except I use a light weight breathable hard shell. Layer over top that when I need to. When its cold and I'm at a stop ill have hardshell down puffy hardshell. So the insulation is protected from sweat and snow.


Sent from my ADR6425LVW using TGR Forums

[fool]

Sorry for the no reply; didn't have subscription turned on and this thread dropped off my radar. Anyways, I currently have both an Apoc and Gipfelgrat hanging in my closet (yes, I have a problem). I'm 6'1" 190, slightly pudgy, typically a size large.

Apoc is a nice comfortable, not too technical yet not too steezy fit, good for skiing. Really feels similar to any typical hard shell to me, only a bit of extra stretch. Weight seems decent. It's definitely not a burly fabric, so I'm a bit worried by the reports of poor durability. I'll probably limit its use a bit because of that. Other than that, it just feels good to wear. Hood is plenty big for a helmet.

Gipfelgrat is really an entirely different beast all together. Fabric is super duper burly and very stretchy, but the thing is pretty heavy. Sizing does run small -- if you check Mammut's size charts their XL chest measurement is ~42-45 inches while Patagonia, for example, is 42-45 inches in their size L. So you probably want to go a size up. I went XL and it fits pretty ok with some room for layering, but the arms are pretty long and baggy. Plenty of torso length. Definitely geared for climbing more than skiing. Climbing helmet fits fine under the hood but ski helmet is a tight fit with the zipper all the way up. Due to the burly fabric it's not as comfortable as the Apoc or something like a Gamma MX, but there's probably nothing I'd rather be wearing high up in nasty weather. It's a beast of a jacket, but really designed more for climbing. I definitely won't be throwing it in the pack on tours just in case, too heavy for that.

Unfortunately, performance wise I can't say much. I'm currently restocking goodwill with the wife and coworkers so I can get out and ski once the season really gets rolling. I should throw these things on and climb some hills in the rain, but haven't done so yet.

And stock seems to be fairly limited on both the Apoc and Gipfelgrat, so don't ponder too long.

Can't say anything about the Rab, except that Rab jackets fit me a bit tight in the armpits. Rab is known to present fit issues for some.

Awesome response: thanks, Smith. Makes sense that stock is limited, just hard for me to fathom a minimum of $200 for a jacket - and that's if it's on sale - when I have an old goretex that works relatively well.

[wilcox510]

Why the hell aren't there more neoshell pants? Seems like they would be great, especially for touring. There are only a couple I know of. Rab Stretch Neo fit weird, have no gaiters. Eider makes some but you can only get them in Europe. Cloudveil is coming out with some soon, but I don't know much about the reincarnated Cloudveil... Any others out there?

[verbier61]

I believe gore is very active against neoshell menace....

[TheDon]

I believe gore is very active against neoshell menace....

From all I hear Neoshell is noticeably more breathable than gore so they should be worried.

....


Can anyone comment on the comparison of neoshell vs Dry Q?

I had a buddy that said he wore his Dry Q stuff resort side and froze to death but thought it was a dream to tour in.

On the other hand I hear the neoshell is not quite as breathable and therefore a little warmer than the Dry Q. Making neoshell the perfect all around fabric...?

[sar13]

I have 3 short tours and a few rainy village days in the NF Jammu jkt with Neoshell. Very happy so far. Seems to breath better than previous soft shell (Gore Windstopper). With vents (pockets) open I have been fine for short (45 minute) climbs on the pass in mid teens to 20s temps. Stayed completely dry through a few downpours over the weekend at the village skiing Teewinot with the kids.
My one gripe is the fit. It is quite baggy - more of a freeride type fit - which is fine for the village but I wish is were a little trimmer for touring. I'm 5'9 and 160 and have the medium.
Full Disclosure: TCSAR is sponsored by TNF and they gave me this jacket.

[MrSmith]

From all I hear Neoshell is noticeably more breathable than gore so they should be worried.

....


Can anyone comment on the comparison of neoshell vs Dry Q?

I had a buddy that said he wore his Dry Q stuff resort side and froze to death but thought it was a dream to tour in.

On the other hand I hear the neoshell is not quite as breathable and therefore a little warmer than the Dry Q. Making neoshell the perfect all around fabric...?

Neoshell is significantly more breathable than Event, something like 0.1 vs 1 CFM. That's why everybody's getting worked up about it.

[neonorchid]

Why the hell aren't there more neoshell pants? Seems like they would be great, especially for touring. There are only a couple I know of. Rab Stretch Neo fit weird, have no gaiters. Eider makes some but you can only get them in Europe. Cloudveil is coming out with some soon, but I don't know much about the reincarnated Cloudveil... Any others out there?

EMS Helix bib pants http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp...701102.3728356

[fool]

Why the hell aren't there more neoshell pants? Seems like they would be great, especially for touring. There are only a couple I know of. Rab Stretch Neo fit weird, have no gaiters. Eider makes some but you can only get them in Europe. Cloudveil is coming out with some soon, but I don't know much about the reincarnated Cloudveil... Any others out there?

Flylow has pants - they look somewhat freeride-ish - though oddly they don't have a corresponding neoshell jacket. Haven't seen them in person though.

[TheDon]

Flylow has pants - they look somewhat freeride-ish - though oddly they don't have a corresponding neoshell jacket. Haven't seen them in person though.

This is rumored to change and the Especial pant next year will be offered in more colors than just the black (boring).

[MrSmith]

Finally got to put my Apoc through its paces on Saturday. It ended up warmer than expected so I definitely managed to work up some sweat. I run hot. I got really clammy. In those conditions I'm not sure I'd notice the difference between the Apoc and my Gore Pro Shell -- neither will do as well as a really breathable soft shell. I think my gamma mx would've performed much better, but would've sucked if the winds picked up or there was any possibility of precip.

[bendtheski]

Flylow has pants - they look somewhat freeride-ish - though oddly they don't have a corresponding neoshell jacket. Haven't seen them in person though.

I've got the Flylow Especial (Neoshell, boring black).

They're noticeably more breathable than the Stash Cargos from two years ago, and although I haven't thoroughly tested them, they seem at least as waterproof. They also have more burly cordoura edge guards around the cuffs and on the knees.

Dan at Flylow has said they will be using Neoshell in at least one jacket next year, and will offer colors besides black in the pants as well. Fit is typical Flylow=great for me and freeride-ish. I'm 5'-6", 165lbs, 34" waist x 31" inseam. I could fit in a medium, but go with a large for a more relaxed fit. The adjustable snap closure on the boot guard keeps the cuffs from dragging in the snow so no problem with the extra length.

I think for resort skiing Flylow's 3-layer intuitive fabric provides a little more warmth than Neoshell, but is less breathable. The Stash, Chemical, and Especial all have hudge inside and outside vents, so moisture build-up really isn't an issue. I would say overall that the Especial/Neoshell would be better for touring, but the black fabric can be a heat magnet on really sunny days. That can be a good thing when it's really cold, but not so great on warmer days. The venting options keep it pretty manageable though.

I have one XCR jacket from Marmot, and I would say breathability is comparable to Neoshell, but the XCR fabric is stiffer and doesn't seem to "move" as well as the Neoshell.

The Especial is a little spendy when compared to the Stash; $400 VS $260, but construction is bomber and there is a noticeable difference in breathability.

[MrSmith]

Wore the Apoc at the resort recently on a cool day. Light to moderate wind, but I was a tad chilly in conditions that I think would've been comfy in my Gore Pro Shell. Feeling the wind more in Neo Shell for sure.

[Micol]

^for the record, Neoshell comes in more than a dozen renditions. They will make the outer layer out of nylon, poly, spandex in a multiple of different percentages of each.

Neoshell has an equal number of interior variations from tricot, to micro velour fleece, to hi loft velour fleece.

All of these variations and choices mean that you cant make a general statement about "Neoshell" that is true to all the variations. All the variations perform differently in terms of stretch, warmth, etc , etc. I have sewn a jacket and various pants out of it and its all different in terms of performance.

I have about 12 Neoshell Swatch cards direct from Polartec and have tested different variations. You guys need to be identifying exactly what you are talking about in each individual garment . Because its not the same across the board.

The only constant is the waterproof membrane as far as I can tell from ripping the layers apart and examining under a 400X digital microscope


e.g.
tricot lining is colder
hi loft velour is warmer
etc

[bendtheski]

^All the 3-layer stuff I've got (XCR, Intuitive, Neoshell) has tricot lining. More breathable, but also cooler than 2-layer with a hung liner (even mesh). My understanding is that a hung liner can provide an extra cushion of trapped air between you any the elements, whereas the lining on a 3-ply is laminated to the outer and waterproof layer into a single layer with no dead air space=cooler.

Back in the day I had some predator pants; 2-layer something or other with a hung fleece liner. Not super-breatheable, but toasty! On really cold-ass days, I wish my fat-ass could still fit in those pants.

[leadbelly2550]

for what it's worth, i have a gtx pro shell jacket that is several years old (marmot exum), have two eVent shell that are both a few years old (Rab Latok, Wild Things Snowkite jacket), and a Marmot Zion softshell w/Neoshell that i picked up last summer. i hike a lot and have worn all of these quite a bit; at least 15 days' worth of hard hiking in the Zion at this point. feel free to give me grief about the number of shells; i'm outside a lot, I use these a lot, and i am an extremely diligent bargain shopper. all but the Zion were purchased at over 40% off, two of those over 50% off because either the color or the model had been discontinued. there, now i feel ever so slightly less guilty.....

by the way, if it's not raining but merely cool/cold or windy, i'm just as apt to use a 4 ounce Patagonia Houdini. Not a great solution for precipitation, but remarkably light and versatile otherwise.

Having hiked in rain ranging from drizzle to downpour in all three, i can say with confidence that they are all waterproof, and that all three do a good job venting moisture. I think it is pretty hard to distinguish the ability of each fabric to allow moisture to escape, based on the qualities of the fabric alone. design has a lot to do with it too. no matter what i'm wearing in the rain, i'm going to sweat if i'm going uphill and carrying a pack. my base layers will get damp no matter what outer shell i'm using, if i'm working hard, but there is a big difference between a little damp and drenched. lab tests and specs are interesting, but the question, for me, is how comfortable i feel doing this inherently uncomfortable act, exerting myself at a high level in crummy weather.

for example, the gore and eVent jackets both have armpit zips that i use liberally and that are a tremendous aid to limiting internal dampness; the Zion has no pit zips. also, the Zion is a soft shell (though not quite as stretch as non-membrane soft shells i have tried) and has a fuzzy inner face; because the Zion is a slightly thicker fabric, it's a fair bit warmer to hike in. Example: on a day-long hike in the rain in Eastern Europe, temps hovering around mid-40s but cooling as i gained elevation, i wore the zion with a short sleeved wool t-shirt underneath and was fine - except on the descent, when i wasn't working as hard and put on a thin long-sleeved t to add some warmth. with the other shells, i definitely would have needed long sleeves and might have needed a slightly heavier layer to stay comfortable. it's also worth mentioning that my base layers were no more damp in the Zion than I have been on hikes using the other jackets, all hard shells and all of which have pit zips that i use liberally. I think it's fair to say that the combination of a soft shell fabric that isn't as tightly woven as a hard shell & the neoshell membrane makes is a winning combination for venting moisture - comparable to a waterproof/breathable hard shell with armpit zips. (with all of these, i'll adjust the front zipper up and down while i hike, in the interest of staying comfortable).

i think eVent and neoshell are a little more air-permeable than gore tex, which I think contributes to the ability of moisture to escape, but it's not noticeable unless the wind really picks up. over 30 mph, i can feel the difference. over 60 mph winds, eVent feels meaningfully cooler to me than gore tex. However, to be fair, the heavier-duty eVent jacket, the Latok, uses a much burlier type of nylon shell, which makes a big difference; it's indistinguishable from my gore tex jacket in high wind. (haven't seen winds that high with neoshell yet, but i'm hoping to this winter). i hesitate to say that eVent and Neoshell are not "windproof" or ill-suited to high winds or cold hiking conditions, but i think most people would feel the difference in high winds.

another point is that a soft shell with a membrane like neoshell isn't going to vent moisture quite as well as a straight, no-membrane softshell - but it's much more resistant to outside precipitation and wind. i have been using a pair of softshell pants in the snow recently, paired with the zion at times. both were fine with colder blowing/drifting snow, but while the Zion was a great barrier in heavy, wet snow, the pants were starting to get damp after a couple of hours.

great thread, hope this helps.

[leadbelly2550]

oh - there were some questions about the durability of neoshell. i can't comment on the durability of the membrane itself, it's too new to evaluate. i have read that the membrane can break down over time - not clear whether that is due to body oil contamination like gore tex and eVent, or some other factor, and i suspect most of the talk about 'breakdown' is not grounded in actual use in the field. though i also occasionally read concerns that eVent would somehow break down over time or be less durable than gore tex, i have seen no empirical evidence to support it - eVent, like gtx, can clearly function well for several years.

because neoshell gets used with so many different outer fabrics, i'm not sure it's meaningful to compare. durability will vary with the type of outer fabric used. Marmot's Zion uses a soft shell fabric that is quite heavy - it weighs a lot (my size XL weighs a whopping 28.8 ounces), but like many true soft shells, it is highly resistant to tears and abrasion. i have already worn this jacket through brush and overgrown trails, with branches regularly grabbing at my sleeves, and the jacket has no visible signs of damage. i imagine some of the ultralight neoshell options, like any lighter shell, might not be best-suited for bushwhacking.

[verbier61]

50 day report about the rab...
http://coreshot.tumblr.com/post/40047112737

[skifunk]

Sounds like good stuff, but am wondering if anyone has used it long enough to see how it wears. Like some softshells, does Neo fuzz or pill up in rub areas?

[tharmor]

It sure seemed to me like there was an entity lobbying against Neoshell from growing over the last 24 months. It doesn't add up. This membrane should be in more products, period. Again, something is at work here.