Legal Question

[Julio]

I sold a pair of skis to a guy online (not a maggot), i sent them in a ski box with the USPS. When he recieved the skis, they were damaged, the tips were all screwed up. The skis were not insured, because he didn't request insurance. Now he wants his money back, claiming that the skis were not packaged properly. A few wraps of bubble wrap would not have prevented this sort of damage, skis are durable, bending a ski requires more than a casual bump. When you get skis directly from a company, they come in a cardboard box, no padding. I feel bad for the guy, but I don't want to give him his money back. What do you folks think, legaly what are my options? Thanks for any advice.

[UTdave]

Sounds to me like you met the normal standard in packing skis. That said your legal responsibility ceases once you've passed the package on to the carrier unless you specifically stated otherwise. Sounds to me like it just sucks for that guy.
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer this is just what I remember from my business law class.

[Beaver]

I always thought the shipper paid the insurance. If he got skis that were mangled he did not get what he bought. He got screwed. You should take your bitch to the shipping co. Regardless, you should refund they guy at least part (most) of his money.

[Sublime]

Not to be a prick but the guy should be bitching to UPS not to you. Yes, I would be pissed to but it's not your fault what are you suppose to follow the skis all the way to the house to make sure they are safe? No it was out of your control. It sucks for everyone involved, can't say there is not going to be a winner in this one.

[UTdave]

Perhaps this quote from West's Business Law could help:
"In a shipment contract, the seller is required or authorized to ship goods by carrier, such as a trucking company. Under a shipment contract, the seller is required only to deliver the goods into the hands of a carrier, and title passes to the buyer at the time and place of shipment [UCC 2-401(2)(a)]. Generally all contracts are assumed to be shipment contracts if nothing to the contrary is stated in the contract."
It goes on to explain destination contracts which is where you are responsible until the goods arrive and title is transferred at that time. Looks like my memory was right on.
That said he should definitely take it up with the carrier.

[CUBUCK]

I'm pretty sure the responsibility falls on the carrier. However, I doubt because you had the option to insure that you will get very far. As much as it is not your fault you should probably just act in good faith and try to help the buyer out with a partial refund or something similar.

[char]

The guy declined insurance? That implies that he accepted the risk entailed in shipping the product. Tough luck. If you are feeling generous, try and work something out, but first tell him to contact the shipping company.

(Just my non-lawyeresque opinion.)

[truth]

UTdave...you got it mang. If the package is shipped with no further stipulation the ownership is transfered when the carrier picks up the package. There should be a minimum amount that UPS insures every delivery for as the do bear some liability for items in thier possesion.

From the UPS website:

"Responsibility for Loss or Damage

Each UPS domestic package or international shipment is automatically protected by UPS against loss or damage up to a value of $100 (U.S.). Unless a greater value is recorded in the insured value field of the UPS source document or the UPS shipping system used, the shipper agrees that the released value of each domestic package or international shipment is no greater than $100 (U.S.), which is a reasonable value under the circumstances surrounding the transportation.


UPS's maximum liability per domestic package or international shipment shall not exceed $100 (U.S.), regardless of the purchase of insurance for protection in excess of $100 (U.S.). If additional protection is desired, a shipper may purchase insurance for amounts in excess of $100 (U.S.) by showing a value in excess of $100 (U.S.) in the insured value field of the UPS source document or the UPS shipping system used. An insurance premium, as established by the insurer of the shipment, will be assessed for each additional $100 (U.S.), or fraction thereof, of insured value in excess of $100 (U.S.) up to the Limits of Insurance, and the shipper will be automatically covered as an additional insured under a shipper's interest insurance policy issued to UPS as the named insured, provided the shipper pays the additional charge. Insurance is not provided for UPS Prepaid Letters.

The insurance policy excludes or does not provide coverage for: articles of unusual value (as defined in Item 460 of the UPS Tariff); Prepaid Letters; checks, phone cards, or gift cards; perishable commodities or commodities requiring protection from heat or cold; loss or damage due to war risks, nuclear damage, insects, moths, vermin, inherent vice (including, but not limited to, improper, inadequate, or unsafe packaging or wrapping that fails to meet UPS's published standards related thereto set forth in the UPS Tariff or elsewhere), deterioration, dampness of atmosphere, extreme of temperature, ordinary wear and tear, or that which occurred or arose prior to or after the course of transportation by UPS; and special, incidental, or consequential damages. Additionally, the insurance policy excludes and does not provide coverage for any damages related to providing, or the failure to provide, C.O.D. service, including, but not limited to: failure to collect the C.O.D. amount; failure to collect the specified form of payment; collection of an instrument in the wrong amount; failure or delay in delivering the collected instrument to the shipper; or collection of forged, insufficient funds, or otherwise invalid instruments."


UPS terms and agreements

[iceman]

Holy crap there's a lot of legalese in this thread that's impossible to read.

Rock on, lawyer dudes.

I guess.

[Julio]

Here's a pic of the skis...yes, they are Pocket Rockets!
http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic15091.jpg

Thanks everyone for your advice, I offered the guy $100 cause i feel bad for him. We'll see what he says.

[UTdave]

damn that's nice of you. I know I wouldn't have done that. You did your part perfectly. He should try to get money from the carrier. One aspect of offering the 100 is that could be an opening to get more money out of you. It would allow him to argue that you offered it because you were somehow defecient in your end of the deal which was not the case. Anyway those still look skiable (still pretty f-ed up though) so it's not a total lost. I don't think that your opening the door will matter at all though because likely nothing will happen over a couple hundred dollars anyway.

Now for the real lawyer talk: About the bill sir I'll be charging you for 3 hours because then I make more money. Oh and that's at 1200 per hour plus expenses. Total comes to 3900 for 3 hours and my spaghetti dinner accompanied by cookies. I'll accept payment via money order personal check and or paypal. Terms of payment are as follows: interest is 8% compounding continuously starting 2 weeks after receiving this bill. I appreciate your business.

[Mcwop]

Did the UPS guy bite them?

Did you offer insurance to the buyer, and did he decline the offer? If yes then it is between him and UPS. IF insurance was never offered or discussed, then go to the legalese in earlier replies.

[Julio]

the skis were actually send USPS, not UPS. I never offered insurance, i just asked him if USPS was good for him and that is what he wanted to do. We are both skiers, I don't want to piss the guy off, not cause i'm scared of being sued or whatever, I just hope he's happy with the $100 and this ends it. If he keeps fighting it...he'll get nothing and like it!!! Thanks again all for your legal advice, the check is in the mail.

[L7]

The information here seems pretty straight forward (and did UPS ever do a good job of screwing those up). I always tell the buyer they pay for shipping that way it's up to them how much they want to spend. Overnight, slow boat and insured or not. If you did that I suggest you tell him he didn't specify insurance. I assume you had good shots on eBay so that should give the shipping company a good idea of pre ship and post ship condition. I could never figure out the part where they make you pay to insure they do their job right. I work at a shop and have shipped lots and I've never seen damage like that. The package must have been damaged so the guy should never of accepted them or at least noted the damage on the weighibill.

[extaski]

Yeah they look fucked up but honestly they don't look that bad... hard to say from just a low res. pic but they still look skiable to me as long as there are no stress fractures...