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Thread: Route Finding-- why do you want to go that way?

  1. #1
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    Route Finding-- why do you want to go that way?

    route finding like many things in the bc must be learned. sometime that learning is the result of trial and error. it is not the best method. experience coupled with book knowledge can go a long way here. following someone who knows is the best way to learn this. those of you who tour with trackhead should gain this knowledge by asking why that way.

    route finding encompasses many things. avoiding fresh windrifts, watching your slope angle, staying away from thin areas in the snowpack that can be trigger points, avoiding wet and warm slopes, following ridges, staying in thick trees, etc. if you know nothing other than good route finding skills then you can avoid most accidents. remember not to think of it as the long way but rather the safe way.

    slope angle is simple. anything above 25 degrees can dry slab avalanche. wet slides can flow on nearly flat ground. the most common angle for a dry slab avalanche is 38 degrees. if you are skiing and traveling on slopes under 30 degrees in relatively stable conditions then you are usually ok. if you have to cross steep slopes (avalanche terrain) you should first assess it with the knowledge you have from reports and your stability tests. then when crossing do so one at a time so that only one person is at risk at a time. if you all go down there is no one left to rescue or call for help locating bodies.

    ridges and trees offer protection from most avy situations. dense, not sparse trees can help anchor the snowpack and even if a hard slab fractures under your weight it will not likely move. in sparse trees each tree may become a possible release point. be aware of the differences in wooded areas. gentle ridges can load and hold slabs but sometimes are still your best route option since a slide will flow away from the center and off to the side. a scoured ridge is usually a safe bet. slides can be romotely triggered from a ridge safely and should serve as a warning of where not to ski (ie. the adjacent slope). skiing down a slide path that has run and not yet reloaded can be a safe way out of a dicey situation. when you don't have a slide that has run already you can create one by roping up and kicking a cornice to induce one. just be careful when coming out of the bottom as not to traverse under another still loaded path.

    avoiding possible trigger points like shallow snowpack, new windrifts, rocks, shrubbery, etc can be tricky. it is hard to tell where the shallow snowpack may be sometimes. areas that constantly remain scoured are a good guess. spread out rocks, trees and shrubs create a discontinuity in the snowpack and can weaken its shear resistance. avoid putting too much weight right next to them. same goes for new windrifts. if there is a big puffy patch of powder at the top of the slope or on the side of a terrain feature, look to see what the other side looks like. it just might be scoured on the windward side and loaded on the lee. avoid the lee if the new slab is cohesive enough to propagate a fracture.

    possible trigger points:


    most importantly don't be afraid to turn around. sometimes that is the safest and smartest way out. i've done it on many occasions but not always when i should have. trust your gut coupled with the knowledge you have from stability tests along the way. the mountain will always be here in our time. another day maybe better. remember that route finding is both up and down.

    this is far from complete, just the basics. i have attached some of trempers guidlines. i highly recommend reading his book Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain. it is one of the most complete books i have read.







    from bruce tremper:

    The rules of routefinding aren’t etched in stone. It’s a dynamic process which depends on the stability of the snowpack, the weather and the kind of people you’re with. The terrain available, and how you travel on that terrain depends on the conditions.
    For instance, if we consider the stability of the snowpack, we use the analogy of a stop light where we separate the stability of the snowpack into the categories of red light, yellow light and green light.

    Red light conditions

    Dry snow
    • Localized to widespread recent natural avalanches
    • Small to medium sized cornice blocks rolling down slopes produce avalanches most of the time
    • Collapsing and cracking
    • Most snowpit tests show unstable snow
    • Recent heavy loading of new and/or windblown snow
    Wet snow
    • Localized to widespread recent natural avalanches
    • Rain on new snow
    • Rapid warming of new snow
    • Sinking in past your knees in wet snow while walking
    Routes available
    • Avoid slopes steeper than about 30 degrees
    • Stay out from underneath any slopes steeper than 30 degrees
    • If you venture into steeper terrain do so only in dense trees, heavily wind scoured slopes or avalanche paths without multiple starting zones which have recently run.
    People considerations
    • Travel only with strong, well-equipped people with good avalanche skills.

    Yellow light conditions

    Dry snow
    • None to very localized recent natural avalanches
    • Large cornice blocks rolling down slopes produce only localized avalanches
    • Localized areas of collapsing and cracking
    • Mixed results on snowpit tests
    • More than 2 days since heavy loading or rapid warming (longer in cold climates or snowpacks with faceted weak-layers)
    Wet snow
    • Very localized recent natural avalanches
    • Sinking in past your ankles while walking
    • Rain on old snow
    • Rapid warming of old snow
    Routes available
    • Selective slopes up to 35 degrees but you have to really know what you’re doing. If you have low avalanche skills, stay on the gentle terrain.
    • Still use full repertoire of safe travel techniques
    People considerations
    • Most avalanche accidents happen during yellow light conditions. Many slopes are safe enough to cross, but there’s still enough booby traps around that people with low avalanche skills will eventually get into trouble. Even someone with good avalanche skills needs to spend a lot of time gathering data to make decisions. Many of the common human factors come into play such as the herding instinct, impatience, euphoria, positive reinforcement, ego, pride, attitude, etc. Some people with lower avalanche skills can accompany skilled members but only under supervision.

    Green light conditions

    Dry snow
    • No recent avalanche activity
    • No collapsing and cracking
    • Large cornice blocks rolling down a slope produce no avalanches
    • Snowpit tests show mostly stable snow
    • More than several days without heavy loading or rapid warming
    Wet snow
    • Thick, refrozen snow surface
    • Mature, isothermal snowpack (no layers course-grained with established drainage channels)
    • Not sinking in past ankles when walking
    Routes Available
    • Most routes are safe
    • This is the time to do those extreme routes you have always dreamed of, but only after carefully checking them out because some extreme routes might still be dangerous.
    People Considerations
    • Large groups with low avalanche skills possible

    link to trempers artical from above
    Last edited by AltaPowderDaze; 01-08-2005 at 09:08 PM.

  2. #2
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    Last edited by AltaPowderDaze; 01-08-2005 at 09:27 PM.

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    http://www.avalanche.org/~lsafc/TUTORIAL/TRAVL.HTM

    http://www.avalanche.org/~moonstone/...%20terrain.htm


    anyone with thoughts please speak up. i feel this is one of the more important aspects of staying safe in the bc. good route finding can keep you out of the paths of natural avalanches and keep you from triggering one yourself. it sounds simple but it is an art that few have truely mastered. it takes years of following knowledgeable people or years of trial and error. hopefully you'll be lucky enough to learn from someone else first.

  4. #4
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    It is super rewarding to be able to navigate through the mountains safely and efficiently. Becoming complacent, even momentarily, during an ascent can cost you as well as others in your group their lives. Unfortunately, sometimes experience and confidence breed complacency. Never let your guard down, and always have humility towards the mountains.
    This is what happens when you skin a little farther than you should onto a steep, windloaded slope:

    You're all lame.

  5. #5
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    Great post APD. I just have a couple thoughts to add, forgive me for the rambling nature.

    To me, terrain management and route-finding is the most difficult aspect of skiing in the BC to gain experience in and become comfortable with. The amount of terrain in the Wasatch is overwhelming when you arrive here, and my lack of familiarity with it (and how to navigate safely through it all) has kept me on the mellower side of things all winter (e.g., corn skiing in Grizzly, small tours into Scottie's, laps in Rocky Point).

    I thought the most useful aspect of the Avy I course I took (the Friends of the UAC course) was the opportunity to go into the field for 2 full days with instructors who have been travelling and forecasting here in the Wasatch for a loooong time. My 3rd day out with Rick Wyatt (Exum guide, former LCC avy forecaster) was a fantastic experience - the opportunity to get in his head, see how he thinks about terrain management and route finding was invaluable. I'd like more opportunities to get out in the BC and put the skills to use, but feel like I need a more experienced traveller in the group as well.

    Its sort of a Catch 22 - its hard to improve safe travel techniques without having someone more experienced to learn from, but its also hard to find an experienced traveller to learn from because of lack of safe travel techniques.

  6. #6
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    In all the factors that come into snow analysis and touring, for me, routefinding is #1. It's all about exposure.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  7. #7
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    I must be missing something. I'm an east coast skier that took AVI 1 last year and never really got into much bc terrain mostly due to the horrible season we had. I'm sure there is much I don't understand but one thing really bothers me. In an area with very limited terrain, ie. isolated gullies, small bowls, and very few open slopes, how does a person assess if they want to ski a slope and assess the avy hazard at the same time. For instance, say Tuckermans is not the popular place it actually is, say it doesn't have it's own forcast, and ranger station, and rescue cache. I took my avy course there and at the end of the hike in the trail dumps into the ravine and you are already IN avy terrain. If Tuckermans was this hypothetical place, how do you judge if you have the skill to ski this slope without hiking straight up it and how do you hike straight up the hill without being directly in the line of fire? Of course at Tucks there are plenty of others to help( weather they know what they are doing or not). Go a couple of drainages over and you are by yourself with no real forecast, popping out of the trees and into bad terrain before you have even spied what your choices are. Maybe its just because i'm so new to thinking about travel like this. It seems like most of the places i've been to out west(resorts) it would be mostly straightforward to follow safe travel rules... Lots of open terrain with lots of travel choices, similar slopes to test. I'm sure thats not always the case, but that seems to be my biggest problem here. Everything seems so tightly packed together here that I don't understand how you assess skiability/avy danger without putting yourself right in harms way.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by firenurse3922 View Post
    I must be missing something. I'm an east coast skier that took AVI 1 last year and never really got into much bc terrain mostly due to the horrible season we had. I'm sure there is much I don't understand but one thing really bothers me. In an area with very limited terrain, ie. isolated gullies, small bowls, and very few open slopes, how does a person assess if they want to ski a slope and assess the avy hazard at the same time. For instance, say Tuckermans is not the popular place it actually is, say it doesn't have it's own forcast, and ranger station, and rescue cache. I took my avy course there and at the end of the hike in the trail dumps into the ravine and you are already IN avy terrain. If Tuckermans was this hypothetical place, how do you judge if you have the skill to ski this slope without hiking straight up it and how do you hike straight up the hill without being directly in the line of fire? Of course at Tucks there are plenty of others to help( weather they know what they are doing or not). Go a couple of drainages over and you are by yourself with no real forecast, popping out of the trees and into bad terrain before you have even spied what your choices are. Maybe its just because i'm so new to thinking about travel like this. It seems like most of the places i've been to out west(resorts) it would be mostly straightforward to follow safe travel rules... Lots of open terrain with lots of travel choices, similar slopes to test. I'm sure thats not always the case, but that seems to be my biggest problem here. Everything seems so tightly packed together here that I don't understand how you assess skiability/avy danger without putting yourself right in harms way.
    there's almost always an option, even in tux. there are days in jan when the dangers been considerable/high for tux but i was able to get some good safe skiing in there anyways, same with gos, hr, oakes, and many other places. route finding and current obz is key. ya the rangers might put the whole bowl at high, but then i might head up to the mouth and peak in (from a safe spot, they do exist) and notice that the right side east of lobster claw had some different wind effect and that the claw had just natural'd with not much new wind loading. hang high right from the mouth to avoid going near/under the areas of most concern, boot up the claw on old surface and yer skiing. same with gos. all the gullies may be teatering on the edge of certain death, but the strong nw winds that load those will actually scour out the far corner of the sandbox by slide peak. stay low in the trees to get to the corner and climb on scoured surface to the ridge, poke around up high, look at some snow and descend safely the way you came on pretty fun low angle terrain. pretty straight forward for us seasoned folk and there are a small handful of us that frequent the high george areas in mid winter, but it takes HUNDREDS of days of looking, poking, and feeling for what's really going on in avy terrain. daily touring in avy terrain is taken on as a case by case basis, but proper route finding should always be practiced, the same way. steep enough slope angle, new snow/slab, sliding surface, and a trigger. take one away and yer not in avy terrain.

    rog

  10. #10
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    Seems like it's clear what can be done to eliminate ascent avy risk but in the real world you face a lot of times when you're exposed to some degree to some type of instability in the snowpack. Mixing routefinding with travel protocol and snowpack knowledge (aspect, elev., recent wind events & loading, sun exposure, time of day)..

    it's complicated and you have to play the odds and rely on partners/beacons/avalungs/airbags as your insurance.

  11. #11
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    Thanks a bunch. Some good info and some very good beta on the tucks area. I think this is the only section on this site where someone can ask a newbie question and not get hit over the head.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    ^^ Try this, see if it helps answer some questions. http://www.avalanche.ca/cac/training...ding-exercises
    great link!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontana View Post
    rely on partners/beacons/avalungs/airbags as your insurance.
    maybe i'm old school, but you should never really rely on such things in avy terrain. imo, you should travel about like you have nothing to rely on cept yer brain, previous experience, and the hairs that may be standing straight up in places where it usually lays flat. carry those items as just in case only tools, know they are there, and how to use em, but never make a decision based on having those items, just in case.

    i'm sure i've told this story before, but one day i was out touring in upper white pine in lcc around boulder basin. twas a touchy day, but not quite so touchy where you couldn't get out and about and enjoy beautiful untracked snow on pitches under 33 degrees away from steeper suspect slopes. as i crest a knoll i here something above and to my right and see 4 dudes crossing a fairly steep east facing hillside below the ridge that separates red from white. looks like they were coming up from pink (yikes). i kept an eye on them as they crossed the slope, fairly spread out, but too close for my comfort, and they made the traverse without incident. there was some sluffing, but otherwise uneventful.

    i resumed my lapping of the boulder basin area and ran into this group. after a friendly hello i asked them how that traverse felt. 1st guy says, "sketch". second guy says, "but we had our avalungs in our mouths". i ask, "would you have crossed that slope in that way if ya didn't have the avalung?" they looked at me, shrugged and said, "probably not". see what i'm getting at? don't rely on gear, or multiple partners with multiple personalities/thought processes. tour like you have nothing and "try" to make smart decisions.

    rog

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    great link goldenboy, we need more learning excercises like this online.

    for me the trickier routefinding questions are smaller in scale. when i look at a large face the routes look fairly obvious. but it is the small-scale decisions that seem more subtle. specifically, i am increasingly wondering about the value of trees in maintaining safe travel routes.

    thinking back over my bit of experience, i have triggered plenty of slides in even the smallest of pockets in the trees. at this point those trees become a bunch of bat-wielding thugs ready to crack my kneecaps! the more i observe, the less i trust trees to keep terrain more stable. i still take comfort in a fairly tight grove of spruces, but it is the gladed open pockets that seem like danger. and aspens smell like evil to me.

    trees seem to prevent surface hoar, and reduce wind slabs. so less risk.
    but trees create their own hazards in terms of impact. so more consequence.

    what i seek to understand is best routefinding practices for at/below treeline, deep powder, moderate avy danger. this is where i am most often.

    what keeps you safe?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ate'em View Post
    what i seek to understand is best routefinding practices for at/below treeline, deep powder, moderate avy danger. this is where i am most often.

    what keeps you safe?
    simple. keep slope angle low (under 30) and stay out from under suspect steeper slopes. no low angle option? choose another option/adventure, or get caught up on chores round the house.

    rog

  16. #16
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    ^^^^
    i understand taking risk to zero by not skiing.
    i also used to three-pin on 25 degree slopes- safe. but not really skiing.

    i am talking about working through the finer points of the green/yellow flag scenario.

    risk will not be eliminated in these situations.
    lets say you determine things to be acceptable for some 38 degree turns below treeling.
    what routefinding choices within this context have kept you all safe?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by firenurse3922 View Post
    Thanks a bunch. Some good info and some very good beta on the tucks area.
    not sure what get's learned in avy 1, 2, or beyond these days, but another thing is timing. often times the rangers will post a high danger rating for the day based on the weather that is expected to come in during that particular day. some days a storm will roll in on lighter east winds and dump on tux and gos with the winds switching to the w or nw and ramping up later in the day so they hoist a high rating right from the getgo.

    well, hitting these weather events early before the switch can lead to huge dividends when no others would think to act on it.

    this particular day was a perfect storm of sorts for getting up high on east facing aspects with the winds out of the east and puking. had to get it early and get out early before our windward playground became lee graveyard. 20 inches total would fall and just 2 of us got in and out with some fantastic 38 ish degree pow turns in. spent the rest of the afternoon lapping the low mountain trail while the winds nuked outta the nw

    feb gos, perfect timing. get in-get out.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb7zM...&feature=email

    rog

  18. #18
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    ^^^ dude! fucking unreal! Ya timing is everything! Some of this soon my friend!

    Got a good route finding story for ya! Wow!
    The Passion is in the Risk

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ate'em View Post
    ^^^^
    i understand taking risk to zero by not skiing.
    i also used to three-pin on 25 degree slopes- safe. but not really skiing.
    skiing is skiing imo.

    i am talking about working through the finer points of the green/yellow flag scenario.
    how much time do ya got? examples?

    risk will not be eliminated in these situations.
    lets say you determine things to be acceptable for some 38 degree turns below treeling.
    what routefinding choices within this context have kept you all safe?
    ascend in the most well anchored area i can while avoiding steep rollovers and terrain traps, and try to stay on the windward aspect from the most recent storm or current loading. oh and most important, not skinning up where i'm gonna have to cross the skinner on the way down. that would be criminal and an aesthetic disaster.

    don't ferget to always ask yerself, "do you feel lucky, punk?"

    rog

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lynchdogger View Post
    ^^^ dude! fucking unreal! Ya timing is everything! Some of this soon my friend!
    ya man. best part is that there is hardly ever another soul up there when pow is to be skied. with winds that turn a fraction of an inch to feet in the lee, we gets lots of pow. i try to imagine what the wasatch woulda been like with no others to see in any drainage round the range in winter. i'd have to go back and visit, at least winter prezzies rool. gonna try to get up there next week.

    Got a good route finding story for ya! Wow!


    rog

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