Trouble in the trees

[mtb]

Me: 40, 5'10", 180lbs. Skied about 15 seasons in the last 30 years; now about 25 days/season. Ski fairly conservatively, no drops.

I just got back from a 3 day cat trip where the terrain was a mix of alpine, glades, and some tighter trees with technical sections. I took my 186 Lhasas, and I loved them in the alpine and glades where I could open them up, but I found them a handful in the tight trees where I wanted to ski more slowly and cautiously. Some of this is definitely technique and confidence, but I wanted to know if there is a more appropriate ski for these conditions -- I'm not sure if it's the shape or stiffness (or both) of the Lhasa that makes them ski better at speed and not as well slowly. I usually ski Baker, and I like the Lhasas in the cutup and wet snow, and I don't want to give up these strengths.

[Sessiøn]

ON3P Billygoat

http://on3pskis.com/products/billy-goat/

[IvanLipko]

MAy be just avoid super tight stuff, for me personally it isn't worth it!

[Crampedon]

More side cut. Love my new wailers or s7's "Turnier"

[bptempleton]

Tail rocker or full reverse camber tends to be very nimble. I have some Moment bibby pros that are ridiculously nimble in tight situations, thanks to healthy tip and tail rocker. Full r/r (reverse camber/sidecut) skis like spatulas, praxis pows, and 138s are unrivaled in their turnability in tight spots, but sacrifice hard snow performance.

[2nd mate]

Going in a diff direction and saying you are probably a good enough skier to make a 186 do WHATEVER you want in any trees Its all confidence. I am yet to find a better tree ski then the 186 and this is EC.

[El Chupacabra]

Going in a diff direction and saying you are probably a good enough skier to make a 186 do WHATEVER you want in any trees Its all confidence.

^^^ This. While nothing beats a full reverse/reverse ski for tight trees (Spatula, Lotus 138s, etc), if you're comfortable enough on any ski, you can make it turn on a dime. Get out over the front of the ski and flex the shovels into the turns.

[time2clmb]

Some of this is definitely technique and confidence, but I wanted to know if there is a more appropriate ski for these conditions -- I'm not sure if it's the shape or stiffness (or both) of the Lhasa that makes them ski better at speed and not as well slowly

Sounds like a user problem. I have the 186 Lhasa and think they are very responsive in tight trees. You can slowly wiggle them around in trees no prob if your in to that. Take the last sentence of advice from El chup...works great.

[moose pit]

I think a bunch of the boutique skis out there (PM gear, Praxis, ON3P, ...) tend to be stiffer and as such need a bit more speed to get into their super responsive turny point. In the trees you are gonna have to let em run a little to get them to really respond. And get on top of them, odds are if you are being tentative and slow you are also in the back seat at least a little.

[mntlion]

dont sit back (we all do this when we are scared, and less confident) and aim for/look at the white bits, ignore the green bits.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Down-weight hard. If the ski responds to it, pressure your heals. Detune the tails well. Keep your hands in front. Reach forward. Force the ski to skid, and knock the green bits out of your way with poles and helmet.
Hesitating and leaning back will lead to getting punched in the mouth by a tree branch and your skis straight-lining.
For some reason, I get a kick out of knocking tree branches out of the way with my poles and helmet, especially if there's a lot of new snow in the trees. If you do it enough, you'll smell good too. I was being more conservative about it. Then I fell on the sidewalk, and I'm not skiing at all. Oh boy, shoulders.

[time2clmb]

the trees you are gonna have to let em run a little to get them to really respond.

Not really. The 186 Lhasa is really fricken easy to turn in powder even when you are not letting them run.

[SB]

ON3P Billy Goats are my ski of choice when spending the day in the trees. Needs to be a RUSH video in here somewhere.

[maksevrod]

Just keep yourself!
--------
made in china

[Hicks]

Sounds like a user problem. I have the 186 Lhasa and think they are very responsive in tight trees. You can slowly wiggle them around in trees no prob if your in to that. Take the last sentence of advice from El chup...works great.

x4

Centered to slightly forward stance makes them turn in a dime.

[XtrPickels]

Some of this is definitely technique and confidence, but I wanted to know if there is a more appropriate ski for these conditions -- I'm not sure if it's the shape or stiffness (or both) of the Lhasa that makes them ski better at speed and not as well slowly.

You have two options
1. Admit defeat and get an easier ski
2. Step up and improve.

The lhasa is skiable by all... but shines when you drive it appropriately.

Instead of backing down, step up to the challenge and become a better skier. The Lhasa will help you get there.
I think my 191's are fun in trees, but I can tell when I'm off my game.

[skinipenem]

Nice Rush soundtrack for this thread.

Things that helped me significantly in the trees:
1) I can't seem to completely ignore the trees so all I allow myself to
ever look at are the soft fringe branches when I can't seem to solely focus on the openings.
2) hands forward and together to shoot the tight spots keeps COM forward/centered, moves branches out of the way, and you can't rip an arm off this way
3) I finally admitted I needed less stiff boots. HUGE HELP! stiff boots = great high speed turns for me, but not awesome in the trees or bumps. I'm not that centered.

It's pretty fun when strangers surprise you in the lift line telling you branches are sticking out of your helmet.... maybe if I only looked at the openings this wouldn't happen; probably not as fun or aromatic.

fwiw.

[ericrayl]

Count me among those who vote for tail rocker if you want to ski slower in trees or for whatever reason in PNW snow. I have enough days on these to say I'm totally content with them as a powder/chowder board unless I'm in a mood to really charge:

http://www.backcountry.com/surface-l...fe-ski-sur0008

[klikboom]

MTB, if you want to try 186 vicik's at stevens or baker I'd like to take a run or 2 on the lhasa's. They prob won't be easier to ski in the tree's though.

[Like a Boss]

Armada JJs (and presumably similar designs) will change your life in the trees. JJs in trees are like slalom race skis on a groomer. If you aren't into adding to the quiver, move the 186 mount up?

[creaky fossil]

Follow a good skier to get your mind out of the problem of trying to avoid looking at the trees. This will help with line selection and the need to see the white spaces (snow) and ignore the brown-grey-green obstacles (trees). If you don't have any good skiers who will be your line-guide, try thinking of the trees as gates you have to turn around on a race course. You wouldn't ski right into a gate would you? You'd want to go around it, right?

If you can't turn on demand, you probably need some skills work. "Probably" because there may conceivably be something wrong with your skis, but it would be odd for the problem to reveal itself ONLY in the trees. There are a lot of people who use the Toobz to project an image of skill and fearlessness, but honestly -- there's no weakness or wimpiness in admitting your skills could use some brushing up or new skill additions.

Being able to turn on demand, in the direction you desire, in the style (size, shape, amount of smear or engagement) of turn you desire is one of the marks of relatively higher level skiing. The inability to do this is what makes bumps and trees so hard for many people. Like all types of skiing it takes practice to get good, but you should practice good technical moves. Practicing bad moves just perfects bad skiing!

[ericrayl]

MTB, I should have offered too.....if you want to try my 189 Surfaces, send a PM. I could meet you at Stevens or you could just pick them up in Woodinville on the way. They're mounted for 325 BSL with some adjustment either way.

[bptempleton]

MTB, if you want to try 186 vicik's at stevens or baker I'd like to take a run or 2 on the lhasa's. They prob won't be easier to ski in the tree's though.

If you're interested in trying some lotus 120's and have a BSL more than 305, I'm interested in a trade for part of a day at Baker.

[mtb]

Thanks for the feedback and the offers to trade skis for a few runs. I might take some folks up on this, but I think this is the crux for me:

If you can't turn on demand, you probably need some skills work.

When I get to dictate where the turns are (i.e. in open terrain with good snow), I feel like a really solid skier. When I get into situations where the terrain dictates the turn (esp. when the snow is less than ideal), I revert to very bad habits. The difference in how I feel on skis is dramatic -- like fkna I feel like a complete beginner dramatic.

[Beyond]

When I get to dictate where the turns are (i.e. in open terrain with good snow), I feel like a really solid skier. When I get into situations where the terrain dictates the turn (esp. when the snow is less than ideal), I revert to very bad habits. The difference in how I feel on skis is dramatic -- like fkna I feel like a complete beginner dramatic.

^^^^ I've owned your skis, they're fine in the trees. Not as effortless as say S7's, but fine. Don't sell them. Instead, take some racing lessons. Yeah, I know, around here that's lame. But nothing like having to deal with gates somebody else placed to sharpen your game for trees. Second choice: Go get decent on serious bumps. They're also usually not where you want them to be.