Review: Binding Freedom Inserts - The Swiss Cheese Experiment

[PeachesNCream]

Did you hand drill or drill press? I have done a couple old pairs with varied results and could def save some cash going this route but haven’t begun drilling my new skis yet, mostly due to being a hack as well.

I tried the drill press but I had a hard time getting the hole in the exact right spot. It’d look right when I lined it up and then I’d slowly bring the drill press down and it’d be off by a 1/16th and then I wasn’t sure which was the correct mark. Ended up just using the hand drill


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[waveshello]

I tried the drill press but I had a hard time getting the hole in the exact right spot. It’d look right when I lined it up and then I’d slowly bring the drill press down and it’d be off by a 1/16th and then I wasn’t sure which was the correct mark. Ended up just using the hand drill


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most consumer-grade drill presses have enough play in them that if you line up the bit, then turn it on and drill, the bit won't come down in the same place it was when the drill was off. Or there's runout that makes it impossible to put the drill bit in a precise location when it is spinning.

My work around for this is to center punch the hole center, gently bring the tip of the bit to rest in the divot, put light pressure on the press, then turn on the drill press while maintaining that light pressure. Drilling begins immediately before the bit can wander. This method is easy, quick, and has never let me down!

[galibier_numero_un]

Reprint at ~104%. (66mm/63.53=1.0389)

Have you found sample to sample consistency with laser printers, Terry?

My HP yields slightly different proportions for an identical print job run multiple times. On the templates I draw with my CAD tool, I include a 5" scale line in both X & Y axes.

On one print job, I may measure X = 4.992 / Y=5.004, and immediately thereafter, I might get X=5.013 and Y=4.995. X&Y are never the same proportion.

While good enuf fer guvment werk, I try to be more accurate when doing my insert installs. Since the largest error is in the length plane of the ski, I'll drill the front two holes of the heel mount using the template, then mount, centerpunch, drill the rear two holes in a secondary operation. As xxx-er says - use the binding as yer jig.

I still like templates (for positioning the heel correctly, as well as locating the toe), but I've found this hybrid method to be the best of both worlds ... at least with my computer hardware ;-)

... Thom

[waxoff]

I quiver killed 5 pairs of skis recently.

I def bubbled the bottom of the ski base once or twice by drilling in the insert too far. I'm a hack and not that precise.

Most of the boards will only see use here and there, 138s etc..

Hmmm, this doesn't compute for me. Too deep drilling alone, won't bubble bases. A hole in base, yes possible, but bubble, how?

I bubbled a base once, followed the tip of installing binding with screws lightly as the insert epoxy sets, and not paying attention to bases. Turns out one of the screws didn't engage the insert threads properly, instead i screwed the insert deeper and nippeled the base, shite! Lesson learned. Now I trust my insert install, and don't see the need to attach bindings during epoxy cure...

[byates1]

When you put the insert in, you go too deep. No backing it out.

I'm out at my storage unit in the middle of nowhere, no drill press. Just me recklessly drilling at various angles and depths.

[PeachesNCream]

Hmmm, this doesn't compute for me. Too deep drilling alone, won't bubble bases. A hole in base, yes possible, but bubble, how?

I bubbled a base once, followed the tip of installing binding with screws lightly as the insert epoxy sets, and not paying attention to bases. Turns out one of the screws didn't engage the insert threads properly, instead i screwed the insert deeper and nippeled the base, shite! Lesson learned. Now I trust my insert install, and don't see the need to attach bindings during epoxy cure...

I think he’s saying he screwed in the insert too deep and that’s how it bubbled the base, not drilling the hole too deep


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[byates1]

Yes

[GoSlowGoFar]

Not sure if this is the place for the question but is there a list hiding on TGR somewhere of some alpine and tech binding patterns that generally are compatible if trying to do inserts for both on a single ski? I know some movement fore/aft of recommended will be required but just looking for something to narrow down some options. Thanks!

[PeachesNCream]

Not sure if this is the place for the question but is there a list hiding on TGR somewhere of some alpine and tech binding patterns that generally are compatible if trying to do inserts for both on a single ski? I know some movement fore/aft of recommended will be required but just looking for something to narrow down some options. Thanks!

I asked this a while back and the short answer is no, best way is to overlay the templates. I think there’s a pdf somewhere out there where you can turn on/off each binding layer. I ended up with pivots and alpinists and they get along well for what it’s worth


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[galibier_numero_un]

I asked this a while back and the short answer is no, best way is to overlay the templates. I think there’s a pdf somewhere out there where you can turn on/off each binding layer. I ended up with pivots and alpinists and they get along well for what it’s worth


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

^^^ Pretty much this ^^^

Hey, @GoSlowGoFar, do you have any candidate binders on hand, or are you starting with a clean slate?

I drew a few overlay patterns with my CAD tool - mainly involving Wardens, Pivots, Vipecs, and IIRC, Raider 12s.

Bear in mind that ATK has changed their toe pattern a bit. Lemme know if any if these permutations are one your short list.

[PeachesNCream]

Well fuck me. Mounted a beat up pair of skis with inserts, went well. Mounted my first pair of brand new skis (moment skis nonetheless) and holes were off and broke the svst insert tool. Couple questions. Is this hole too far off for an inserts? If so, how do I rescue it? Fill with epoxy or maybe a dowel?

Also the svst tool broke. What the hell. I wonder if the hole is too small? Using a 1/4” drill bit. Was tapping. Any tips? Maybe issues because moments topsheet is so hard?

Heading out for a run to blow off some steam




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[byates1]

Just drill 5 or 7 other holes freehand and one of them is bound to work

[RAB3]

Ooofff…that sucks. I kind of think it’s too far off to use as is. If they were mine I’d fill with a hardwood dowel and high quality epoxy and redrill.

[RAB3]

Just drill 5 or 7 other holes freehand and one of them is bound to work

This is also a time tested method

[AlpiNord]

Well fuck me. Mounted a beat up pair of skis with inserts, went well. Mounted my first pair of brand new skis (moment skis nonetheless) and holes were off and broke the svst insert tool. Couple questions. Is this hole too far off for an inserts? If so, how do I rescue it? Fill with epoxy or maybe a dowel?

Also the svst tool broke. What the hell. I wonder if the hole is too small? Using a 1/4” drill bit. Was tapping. Any tips? Maybe issues because moments topsheet is so hard?

Heading out for a run to blow off some steam




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(For the next time, drill for alpine screws first, test drive, THEN install inserts.)

Sizing, a 1/4” bit is a little smaller than an F bit, which is the ‘spec’d’ size for BF inserts, but 1/4” is very typical and common. Due to the extra purchase (read substantially) of inserts, epoxying in a dowel w/slow cure epoxy, then cut, sand and redrill should be fine. Start with an awl for marking, then a punch before drilling a smaller pilot hole. Progressively increase diameter to redrill as you see fit.


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

[HukuTa_KydecHuk]

Well fuck me. Mounted a beat up pair of skis with inserts, went well. Mounted my first pair of brand new skis (moment skis nonetheless) and holes were off and broke the svst insert tool. Couple questions. Is this hole too far off for an inserts? If so, how do I rescue it? Fill with epoxy or maybe a dowel?

Also the svst tool broke. What the hell. I wonder if the hole is too small? Using a 1/4” drill bit. Was tapping. Any tips? Maybe issues because moments topsheet is so hard?

Heading out for a run to blow off some steam

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

man... Mark horizontal and vertical lines for each hole. It basically takes 2 minutes of time. Also, as written in previous messages, never drill for inserts before you test out bindings with regular holes/screws. Even more, when I used to have no jig, I verified if holes align after each hole/insert. Yes, that is time consuming but I used to finish mounts in less than an hour. Make first drill, screw your toe/heel piece in, look through the binding if the other holes align with your previous marks, then second, then third, one by one. Same with inserts. This way, if you fucked up one hole you will be able to re-mark others and save the mount.

about saving your mount, I'd also suggest wood dowels + epoxy. But I'd probably still drill -1 or +1 from current holes.

[PeachesNCream]

Thanks for the tips. I’m going to dowel and epoxy, I can’t get myself to drill another set of holes in new skis.

Something I’m confused by is why aren’t the inserts going in which caused me to break the svst tool? Any theories? I’m using a 5/16” tap, is that the wrong size?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fleaches]

Thanks for the tips. I’m going to dowel and epoxy, I can’t get myself to drill another set of holes in new skis.

Something I’m confused by is why aren’t the inserts going in which caused me to break the svst tool? Any theories? I’m using a 5/16” tap, is that the wrong size?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is it the tap that broke or the insert installation tool?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[NW_SKIER]

Thanks for the tips. I’m going to dowel and epoxy, I can’t get myself to drill another set of holes in new skis.

Something I’m confused by is why aren’t the inserts going in which caused me to break the svst tool? Any theories? I’m using a 5/16” tap, is that the wrong size?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It appears you got in a hurry, skipped important steps and this is just a result of that. We gave you pretty damn good instructions to do that job too. Those holes are no good for that mount. You'll never get the screws to line up. You can either plug them up and redrill, or remount entirely. Based on the above evidence, I'm hesitant to believe you have the tech skill to plug and redrill overlapping your plug without another mistake, which will leave you with an even bigger problem. Offset drilling over a plug is a more difficult hole to get right than a brand new one.

As far as the insert tool goes, it's a piece of shit. Throw it away and use two nuts on a machine screw to put your inserts in.

This is going to harsh and I apologize in advance because I'm not trying to be mean. Next time, follow the wisdom of those that have gone before you and this shit won't happen. Insert jobs are something you have to be extremely patient with and obsess over perfection to get right. They have little tolerance for error.

Good luck. I mean that. If you have any more questions, the dickhead tech line is always online.

[grinch]

Its only a couple mill difference. Fill w epoxy, redrill in the corect location for proper binding screw, use that hole for a pilot and drill for the larger insert , use that hole for a pilot and drill latger for heli coil. Epoxy in the heli coil then epoxy in the insert into the hrli coil and done. Heli coil that the inserts will fit in are $5 for 10 at an automotive parts store. Just snip them to length because theyll be a touch long

Sent from my SM-A536W using TGR Forums mobile app

[AlpiNord]

Thanks for the tips. I’m going to dowel and epoxy, I can’t get myself to drill another set of holes in new skis.

Something I’m confused by is why aren’t the inserts going in which caused me to break the svst tool? Any theories? I’m using a 5/16” tap, is that the wrong size?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

After filling the hole you could drill for an alpine screw in the errant hole first, with inserts in the others for now.

I have yet to see or hear about the 5/16” tap being too small. The thread pitch matches the inserts. Super hard top sheet or not deep enough holes is all I can think of as the issue. An F-bit does feel easier to tap than a 1/4” and almost seemed like there wasn’t enough thread bite to me compared to a 1/4”. There are searchable spec charts for drill to tap sizing and IIRC, Jondrums originally spec’d F-bits/5/16”, but everyone has been using 1/4” AFAIK.

Here’s a quick video I shot on basic insert drilling, tapping and install for a dry mount to Baltic birch plywood:




Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

[PeachesNCream]

Thanks for the video alpinord. Pretty darn close to what I was doing except I was using the tool instead of two nuts. Stopping by the hardware store this morning. If my tap and drill bit sizes are correct, which you guys have verified, my theory is because I wasn’t tapping far enough in. I didn’t want to get to the bottom and then strip the threads I just created but I’m realizing I might not have gone down the tap far enough to cut the threads


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PeachesNCream]

Thanks for the video alpinord. Pretty darn close to what I was doing except I was using the tool instead of two nuts. Stopping by the hardware store this morning. If my tap and drill bit sizes are correct, which you guys have verified, my theory is because I wasn’t tapping far enough in. I didn’t want to get to the bottom and then strip the threads I just created but I’m realizing I might not have gone down the tap far enough to cut the threads


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fleaches]

If my tap and drill bit sizes are correct, which you guys have verified, my theory is because I wasn’t tapping far enough in. I didn’t want to get to the bottom and then strip the threads I just created but I’m realizing I might not have gone down the tap far enough to cut the threads


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I haven't done an insert mount in a while now, but I remember having to back out the tap and drain the sawdust a couple of times per hole. Otherwise you'll feel resistance and think you are at the bottom, but really it's because there are debris you are running up against.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[grinch]

After i drill and tap i do a few small punches in the center of the hole. Its a little reservoir for some epoxy and the insert tapers a fair bit below the threads. It just makes it easier

Sent from my SM-A536W using TGR Forums mobile app