Review: Binding Freedom Inserts - The Swiss Cheese Experiment

[XtrPickels]

Didn't someone actually have overlapping holes where the threads of one insert meshed with another?

I can't find it, so perhaps I'm crazy.

[selle]

here it is: http://www.wildsnow.com/4004/backcou...-binding-swap/

[StopMakingSense]

I still want inserts on my skis, I'll let all of you know how it goes

[SouthCentralShralper]

Hey Grenalds (or anyone else who has installed inserts) - How did you get the finish between top sheet and threads looking so nice? When I installed some yesterday, they didn't come out quite so smooth looking - epoxy and burred top sheet everywhere. Is it better to sink the insert into the bottom of the hole or leave it flush with the top sheet? Probably leave it flush, eh? I was just worried about air and possible water getting below the insert. You did a good job!

[grenalds]

Fo sho' keep those inserts flush! Shouldn't be too big of a concern if the holes are drilled to correct depth.

Also, a countersink can be handy to start the inserts and keep things nice and tidy. I think you can see an example of that in one of Jon's videos. No need to use the countersink in a power tool, hand works great. Happy inserting!

[jondrums]

Install flush for sure.

These rock, but other countersinking/deburring tools work fine too. Just take the sharp edge off the hole in the topsheet. I do it by hand.

[arild]

Just tapped my first pair of metal skis for inserts (anxiously awaiting package from jondrums), quite the gruelling experience. I expected a bit of resistance when going through the topsheet, and was fine with that. What I didn´t expect was how soft and easy the wood would be to tap after first going through the topsheet. It went so easy I thought I stripped everything. Had to reverse the tap for the first ski, and all the holes, in order to make sure I wasn´t ruining the threads. Just checked afterwards with a screw coincidentally epoxied into an insert (last insert mount went a bit awry). After 18 holes and a nervous sweat, 90 minutes and a crying baby later, I´m confident it went very well.

Now, all I wait for is my care package with heli coil kit, inserts, and more of that awesome 72h epoxy (at least I hope I ordered 72h, might have ordered 24).

Good night and good luck.

[grenalds]

These rock, but other countersinking/deburring tools work fine too. Just take the sharp edge off the hole in the topsheet. I do it by hand.

That thing looks fancy, maybe I'll pick one up. How is that different than a countersink? Or is it one? Tough for me to see what's happening in that photo.

I was also checking out your drill/tap guide. What did you make those out of? Also, how have they held up over time? Do you have one you've used on more than 100 inserts?

Just curious. I've been using aluminum stock, and it seems to wear out after around 100 installs. Making a tap template for various bindings works great since it distributes the wear and tear.

[jondrums]

That is a countersink tool, just one designed to work well by hand and it has a 1/4" guide, which is perfect for an insert hole.

The guide block is aluminum with a hardened "drill-bushing" so you should be able to pass it on to your kids when they are old enough

[SouthCentralShralper]

I've installed over a 100 of the inserts now and here's few things I've learned along the way (most of which have already been posted)...
+ take the time to set the drill stop to the desired depth (whether your using the guide block or not). On my first set I measured with calipers but came up just a touch deep and it was easy to over drive the inserts beyond flush.
+ nice, clean tapping = easy insert installation
+ just the right amount of epoxy. Too much and you've got a mess trying to fill your machine threads. Too little and well, you've got too little - not good for retention and or sealing the core.
+ the installation tool did not work for me. The notch in the top of Jon's inserts wasn't always square and well defined and the tool had a hard time getting good enough purchase to drive the insert. Initially, I was using the guide block and insert tool and was getting some epoxy on both... a sticky mess. Then I went to a flat head screw driver which worked pretty good, but if there is any resistance, it'll strip the notches out of the top of the insert. The best method I found was using a machine screw with locking nuts to drive the inserts in. I could use a flat head to adjust the final depth (in or out) or to release the machine screw from the insert if they locked together.
+ Lastly, I made the mistake yesterday of waxing my skis, putting them in the hot box overnight and then trying to swap bindings in the morning. The heat softened all epoxy (much more than the threadlock!) and when I removed a heal piece the machine screws had 3 inserts on them! Fuck! No problem, I just put some more epoxy in the holes and rethreaded them all in. I've let them sit overnight (not in the hot box!) and we'll try them again today.

Ultimately, I think these are great. I wish (as other have stated before) that I started in some older skis first to get my techniques dialed instead of new boards. But they came out completely function-able, just not as clean looking as the most recent pair.

[SouthCentralShralper]

One other note- I stripped one of the allen heads on a machine screw after it's 3rd install/removal. Kind of a bummer. There seems to be a slight bit of play with a 3mm allen driver. Has this happened to anyone else? My suggestion is to buy a few extra initially. I'm curious how long they will hold up.

[Jethro]

One other note- I stripped one of the allen heads on a machine screw after it's 3rd install/removal. Kind of a bummer. There seems to be a slight bit of play with a 3mm allen driver. Has this happened to anyone else? My suggestion is to buy a few extra initially. I'm curious how long they will hold up.

I have not had this problem with inserts, mostly since I haven't swapped my bindings around yet. This is really common with allen heads though. It is a pretty fragile design. If you can find stainless torx screws, then you would be set.

[Knut]

... and here's few things I've learned along the way (most of which have already been posted)...

One thing I'd like to add here ('cause it might have added to the unscrewing of the inserts I experienced once), although it should be well known:
+ clean the inserts properly before use. EtOH or acetone is best.

[1000-oaks]

I think I used gasoline in a metal bowl to clean about 100 inserts at once.

[SouthCentralShralper]

^^^ Wow, great advice. I didn't even think of that while installing, yet I think I've read it before. ^^^

[6CA7x4]

Being neurotic and indecisive and a binding whore these inserts have been calling my name. Finally started my own swiss cheese experiment. Rock skis were already drilled for Tyrolia Peak 12 and I thought they'd serve as a decent touring ski. I have Dynafit Vertical ST and Dukes. Sometimes Dukes are the right option, but I've seen so many of them so beat up that I wanted to maintain the Tyrolia option for dedicated inbounds use, so I installed inserts for both Tyrolia and Dynaduke. I also figured this would be a good test for the swiss-cheese factor. For my first effort I am pretty pleased.



One issue that I ran into on the Tyrolias was difficulty finding the proper machine screw replacement for the quite long rear screws. 16mm button heads are just a hair too short for my comfort, maybe squeaking out 3mm of engagement, while 20mm button heads are a bit too long. I had read a suggestion somewhere of simply grinding down a longer screw on a bench grinder. I tried this and was able to carefully grind the threads such that I could get them to engage, but this was tricky and I felt it was a cross-thread waiting to happen. What ended up working for me was to use #8 SS washers as shims. They needed to be drilled out a bit so the M5 screws could pass, and they were a bit too large to fit in the gap in the Peak 12's plastic heel, necessitating a little squaring-off on the bench grinder. Not the prettiest piece of fabrication, but a couple of these shims made for a solid connection.





If it's useful for anyone, here are the screws that worked, sourced from bindingfreedom.com:
4 x 14mm smallhead
4 x 10mm buttonhead
4 x 16mm buttonhead
4 x 20mm buttonhead + 8 x modified #8 washers

I do have a set of Peak 15's currently mounted, which I figure there'd be more interest in (the rear screws for the heel piece are definitely different form the Peak 12). I may convert those to inserts some day, but that may be a ways off.

One day on these with the Dukes. So far so good.

[HHTELE]

One other note- I stripped one of the allen heads on a machine screw after it's 3rd install/removal. Kind of a bummer. There seems to be a slight bit of play with a 3mm allen driver. Has this happened to anyone else? My suggestion is to buy a few extra initially. I'm curious how long they will hold up.

Yup. Was using a t-handle 3 mm with kind of a round head. Not sure why these round heads are a good thing. Cut off tool made the wrench work much better.

Anyhow, screw extractor fixed the first problem. The second problem required removing the plate, and drilling the screw out. this was less fun, as I was concerned about the drill actually hitting the machine threads of the plate.

Note to self- NO slop allowed in allen wrench.

[LC]

I found the same thing with the Plum screws supplied by Jondrums for my Sollyfit toe plates. The supplied allen key has 3mm etched on it but I suspect the screws might actually be a 1/8 hex. Jon?

[bobbuilds]

so here is what I did.

bluehouse shoots
bamboo core, maybe a sheet of metal? not sure on metal?

22designs hammer head 950mm from tail to pin line (ended up -5mm)
marker duke large 820mm from tail to boot center (actual)
both marks taken from BH mounting ins.

spacing is great +2mm at the toe piece 1.7mm at the heel.

Here is where it went bad.


2 of the inserts on both skis are high! not super high but enough to catch a scraper maybe .3mm? enough to disturb the duke heel plate from being flat. what should i do? nylon washers between binding and skis? sand/grind the insert?

pretty sure it's one of the bigger no no's.

any help

edit: is there a certain fastener or manufacturer of fastener I should be using, my local Ace Hardware flat heads don't quite fill the countersink on the Marker Duke and my pan heads seem tight in the Axl

[Cocximus]

Is http://bindingfreedom.com still operating? I sent the guy a few emails asking him what screw set he offers for the geze toe he has listed on his website but never got an answer. Maybe it's time to let go of the 3 screw geze...

[AlpiNord]

Here is where it went bad.


2 of the inserts on both skis are high! not super high but enough to catch a scraper maybe .3mm? enough to disturb the duke heel plate from being flat. what should i do? nylon washers between binding and skis? sand/grind the insert?

pretty sure it's one of the bigger no no's.

any help

edit: is there a certain fastener or manufacturer of fastener I should be using, my local Ace Hardware flat heads don't quite fill the countersink on the Marker Duke and my pan heads seem tight in the Axl

Is the height due to not enough depth drilling or during the insert install? If the former heat, extract, redrill, re-tap (may not be necessary), re-epoxy and install. If the latter, heat and drive deeper. Someone else may have an opinion if this will be sound enough versus also possibly re-tapping, epoxing and re-install deeper.

The screws needed are m5 x 18-8 pitch which are standard metric ss machine screws like these:



IIRC, 9mm fatheads for Dukes. A panhead for previous to 2012's. If needed put the panheads in a drywall anchor in a secured drill, spin and grind with stone or file to reduce head diameter a scootch.

Daught, here are a few pointers on measuring the screws needed for any binding and insert. Jon sometimes gets swamped and usually gets back in touch when he gets his head above water.

[jondrums]

Is http://bindingfreedom.com still operating? I sent the guy a few emails asking him what screw set he offers for the geze toe he has listed on his website but never got an answer. Maybe it's time to let go of the 3 screw geze...

I get behind on emails that aren't related to placed orders. Sorry about that! I don't have any screws that could work with a 3-hole geze toe, only a 4-hole geze toe. The 3 hole toe has a special front screw that can't easily be replicated with inserts.

[snoboy]

Here is where it went bad.

2 of the inserts on both skis are high! not super high but enough to catch a scraper maybe .3mm? enough to disturb the duke heel plate from being flat. what should i do? nylon washers between binding and skis? sand/grind the insert?

pretty sure it's one of the bigger no no's.

I have had a couple of high inserts too. I just run a flat file over them and it all sorts itself out. Put a little masking tape on your topsheet if you are concerned about scratches.

[bobbuilds]

^^^^

"that was a good call, actually."

thank you.

[jondrums]

I found the same thing with the Plum screws supplied by Jondrums for my Sollyfit toe plates. The supplied allen key has 3mm etched on it but I suspect the screws might actually be a 1/8 hex. Jon?

nope, both the screws and allen wrench are 3mm. I've found that the best solution is a T-handle tool with a squared off end. I actually tried quite a few brands of t-handle allen, and found the best kind, which I sell on bindingfreedom.com - it has special features to avoid stripping the allen head.