Review: Binding Freedom Inserts - The Swiss Cheese Experiment

[galibier_numero_un]

@PeachesNCream - listen to Terry and run, don't walk to buy his insert tool. It's a game changer and you won't look back.

As far as drilling an overlapping hole, the bit will wander on you due to the varying density of the plug and the undrilled section of the ski. The best way to keep the drill from wandering is to pick up a drill bit guide and clamp it to the ski.

Refer to 0:18 of Terry's video above, but clamp the guide in place. Did I mention to clamp the guide in place?

Here's one: https://www.amazon.com/Milescraft-13...s%2C680&sr=8-7.

I drill the slightest bit deeper than the inserts (maybe by .25 to .5mm). Of course, compare your bit depth against the thickness of the ski (doh!). I spin the tap 5-1/2 turns. Slow down after 5 turns and do the last turn by feel, in case you start to run into the bottom layer of fiberglass.

Yes! Vacuum out the hole after each step! Also, some bits of ski core may build up under the drill bit collar, so you may need to make a second pass to drill to full depth after cleaning.

As far as hole depth, I need to come clean about my first and only accident I had recently. I'll humbly post this later (and my solution to prevent this in the future).

Hey Terry! I finally got off my fat arse and put a review up for the insert tool. C'est magnifique !!!

... Thom

[AlpiNord]

Thanks Thom. The insert tool is based on the jam nut technique, but easier & quicker. It also works for both Binding Freedom inserts & Quiver Killers.

Along with the good reminders on cleaning debris and clamping drill guides, another rarely discussed obvious one, is to simply place your bindings over your marks to confirm alignment before drilling. You might need to highlight the marks and use a flashlight.

Happy Holidays all!


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[PeachesNCream]

Thanks Thom. It’s good to hear the instructions again, most of it is stupid simple and obvious but also easy to forget or skip (like checking the hole locations before you drill *forehead slap*).

Ahhh, I know on here people were talking about a really useful insert install tool and a cheap one that doesn’t work. I thought I was buying the former but looks like I bought the latter.

Good advice on clamping the drill bit guide, re wandering bit. I don’t think I have a drill bit guide, last time I made a homemade one, might do that again, or use the drill press.

Happy holidays all! Appreciate the help


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[halliday]

Thanks Thom. It’s good to hear the instructions again, most of it is stupid simple and obvious but also easy to forget or skip (like checking the hole locations before you drill *forehead slap*).

Ahhh, I know on here people were talking about a really useful insert install tool and a cheap one that doesn’t work. I thought I was buying the former but looks like I bought the latter.

Good advice on clamping the drill bit guide, re wandering bit. I don’t think I have a drill bit guide, last time I made a homemade one, might do that again, or use the drill press.

Happy holidays all! Appreciate the help


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If you need a drill bit guide I have one you can borrow. They come in handy....

[PeachesNCream]

If you need a drill bit guide I have one you can borrow. They come in handy....

Thanks, probably not worth the effort, I should just buy myself one, but was able to get it done with the drill press


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[PeachesNCream]

Figured this thread deserved an update with all the help you guys have provided. Used a dowel to fill the misaligned hole and then used a drill press to drill the new hole and avoid bit wandering, came out well. On the second ski, did much more quick double checks and was able to catch one hole adjustment before drilling. Happy with how these came out.

Note, I do think it’s very helpful to put the bindings on after the job is done and the epoxy is still wet. I was pleasantly surprised how smooth the screws went it the second time after the epoxy had cured


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[AlpiNord]

Nice job. Good to hear feedback.

[halliday]

Figured this thread deserved an update with all the help you guys have provided. Used a dowel to fill the misaligned hole and then used a drill press to drill the new hole and avoid bit wandering, came out well. On the second ski, did much more quick double checks and was able to catch one hole adjustment before drilling. Happy with how these came out.

Note, I do think it’s very helpful to put the bindings on after the job is done and the epoxy is still wet. I was pleasantly surprised how smooth the screws went it the second time after the epoxy had cured


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Looks good. I always run the screws while the epoxy is setting up. I usually use the Hardman Orange so I have plenty of time to run screws after I clean up. After three or so days I'll take the screws out and run them again with some Vibra-Tite. Best case scenario happened and your skis are not trashed.

[bodywhomper]

This is only the third time pulling bindings off these inserted skis, but the first time I’ve experienced this. Used 24-hr marine epoxy when installing the inserts and vibratite when screwing the bindings into the inserts. I probably overtightened the screw into the insert? Should I just carefully screw the insert back in and move on?

[ctsmith]

I’ve had this happen once after a dozen or so pair of skis I’ve put inserts in. I just unscrewed the insert, put a bit of G Flex epoxy on the threads and hole, screwed it back in and it’s been fine.

[DigSki]

Insert folks, I could use your thoughts. I have questionable cores on a pair of skis. I don't know if they're rotted, but the regular binding screws came out rusty. I redrilled those holes for inserts and the wood was not as light / blonde as I think it should have been. I didn't know what to do at the time, so I put inserts in with G Flex. They do have some metal in the binding mount area (QST 106), but I haven't skied them yet since I'm a little wary of a pullout. If I ski them hard am I gonna die?

Also, any good ideas for testing if the cores are actually shot? I was thinking of two things:
- loosening the screws and just yanking on the bindings as hard as I can
- putting a boot in with DINS cranked and trying to lever as hard as I can with a pipe or something

[halliday]

This is only the third time pulling bindings off these inserted skis, but the first time I’ve experienced this. Used 24-hr marine epoxy when installing the inserts and vibratite when screwing the bindings into the inserts. I probably overtightened the screw into the insert? Should I just carefully screw the insert back in and move on?

While the epoxy is setting up just put the screws in so everything lines up while the epoxy is curing. Don't tighten the screw much if at all. Let the epoxy do its job. Don't be impatient during cure time.

[Westcoaster]

This is only the third time pulling bindings off these inserted skis, but the first time I’ve experienced this. Used 24-hr marine epoxy when installing the inserts and vibratite when screwing the bindings into the inserts. I probably overtightened the screw into the insert? Should I just carefully screw the insert back in and move on?

Cleaning and degreasing the inserts with a paint thinner is key to getting a decent epoxy bond imo. The inserts I have bought have all had plenty of machine oil left on em, which is good for storage, but bad for bonding. Eoxy bonds mechanically to metal substrates ( or any substrate that's not a partially cured epoxy) and they at a minimum need to be clean, but ideally have surface texture.

[snoboy]

bodywhomper, I've had that happen a few times, even though I am pretty careful about solvent cleaning the inserts before gluing in. Sometimes I run the corner of a file down the side of the inserts to now - my thought is that they will get locked in better, and I haven't had one of those spin out yet.

[Cocximus]

Do people use a bottoming tap? I use a regular tap and change my bindings with a drill set on low torque. I never had an insert pull out. Maybe the regular tap leaves a bit more meat to bite into at the end. I'm trying to pull some inserts from a ski and I had no luck with blue, or red loctite.

[bodywhomper]

Thanks for the replies. I thought I cleaned my inserts pretty well with a degreaser before installing. Sounds like I should pull the insert, put in a little more epoxy in the hole, and reinstall the insert. I had always assumed the epoxy was primarily to serve as a water barrier and not to retain the insert into ski. I imagine the tapped threads in my ski are all good and coated in epoxy.

Back in the day, I worked in a shop with a binding designer who was taking a break and changing careers. He had a few Swiss cheese skis that didn’t have inserts, but only epoxy-coated binding screw threads in the wood core. He was experimenting with binding location.

[GoldenBC]

Hoji used to always swap bindings between skis and he would just use epoxy to seal the holes and reinforce the threads.

I would be cautious doing that with a second set of holes in a ski (as in, you will ski another binding on it with those holes exposed).

I regularly switch bindings between skis without epoxy, inserts, or quiverkillers. Just wood glue and line up the threads.

[galibier_numero_un]

This is only the third time pulling bindings off these inserted skis, but the first time I’ve experienced this. Used 24-hr marine epoxy when installing the inserts and vibratite when screwing the bindings into the inserts. I probably overtightened the screw into the insert? Should I just carefully screw the insert back in and move on?

Did you de-grease the inserts before installing?

[edit]oops! already covered[/edit]

... Thom

[bodywhomper]

I have read that maybe I had too much vibratite in the insert. Pulled the insert, reapplied epoxy, and reinstalled the insert. I’ve since changed bindings several times without new issues.

I’m now planning to put inserts in my eldest kid’s skis, one set for the existing installed alpine Salomon clamps and one for touring clamps. Is there a good procedure for the existing holes to ensure precision of hole locations for the inserts? Or should I simply expand the holes at insert diameter, tap, etc., install inserts, loosely install bindings before the long cure epoxy starts to get going, and hope for the best? I’m a little concerned I could have been a little sloppy when originally drilling/installing the bindings.

[DigSki]

I have read that maybe I had too much vibratite in the insert. Pulled the insert, reapplied epoxy, and reinstalled the insert. I’ve since changed bindings several times without new issues.

I’m now planning to put inserts in my eldest kid’s skis, one set for the existing installed alpine Salomon clamps and one for touring clamps. Is there a good procedure for the existing holes to ensure precision of hole locations for the inserts? Or should I simply expand the holes at insert diameter, tap, etc., install inserts, loosely install bindings before the long cure epoxy starts to get going, and hope for the best? I’m a little concerned I could have been a little sloppy when originally drilling/installing the bindings.

I did exactly what you suggested with 3 pairs of skis this fall and they all turned out great. I was also a little sloppy with some of the original holes, inserts turned out exactly the same. If your holes are super sloppy and you want to correct that, then I think you'll need to fill the holes with epoxy or a dowel or something so you can redrill fresh - the drill will want to find the center of the existing hole otherwise.

[bodywhomper]

Thanks! Success drilling out existing holes or success filling existing holes and redrilling?

[DigSki]

Thanks! Success drilling out existing holes or success filling existing holes and redrilling?

My bad, wasn't clear - success just drilling out existing holes.

[AlpiNord]

I’m now planning to put inserts in my eldest kid’s skis, one set for the existing installed alpine Salomon clamps and one for touring clamps. Is there a good procedure for the existing holes to ensure precision of hole locations for the inserts? Or should I simply expand the holes at insert diameter, tap, etc., install inserts, loosely install bindings before the long cure epoxy starts to get going, and hope for the best? I’m a little concerned I could have been a little sloppy when originally drilling/installing the bindings.

Yes and use your boots to verify alignment. I redrilled some ION holes for inserts and had one off a skootch. By sequencing the tightening I used the other three holes to align the wonky one. Worked out fine. I shot videos on the process and have not edited them, but could upload the raw footage later. One shows the insert installation tool's use.

[bodywhomper]

Thanks all!

[bodywhomper]

Newest addition to the insert crowd.


What’s the best thread or location to get details about binding holes and alpine bindings in general? I’m trying to get ducks in a row to convert thing #1’s DD’s (z12’s) into resort DD and touring boards via inserts for the z12’s and for f12 frame binding. Today, I took a look at his z12’s and the heel frames on one piece are cracked at the screws. I’m kinda thinking the bindings may be toast but ain’t sure. The kiddo has some pow boards with 914’s. If the z12’s are toast, thinking about inserts for both boards for 914’s and also for f12’s for that DD…. Thoughts and feelings or better thread for solving this?