Review: Binding Freedom Inserts - The Swiss Cheese Experiment

[Norseman]

GFlex is the most useful substance I have added to my garage in awhile. An epoxy capable of withstanding torsion? Cracking was the only problem epoxy had before and gflex solved that

It is good shit, no doubt.

[HHTELE]

My entry to the Swiss cheese category. Pretty sure the vipecs we're mount number seven. OG Jaks, brought out of retirement for early season rock skis.
I forgot how much fun these are. Inserts going in next shop session.

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[margotron]

^^^^^^^^^^^ impressive

[galibier_numero_un]

^^^^^^^^^^^ impressive

I think he should mount ZEDs on them.

... Thom

[HHTELE]

That is actually the more pristine ski. This one had a very stuck screw. I drilled through the bottom of the ski, and when that didn't work, I used an angle grinder through the metal layer and cut the shank of the screw. Used g flex top and bottom. It turns out skis are durable.


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[Peruvian]

Thoughts on one more 6 hole telemark binding mount on these Swiss cheese skis? Even with 20 holes so far, there is plenty of room where I need to line up the mount.



Yeah, I know I have to reset some of the inserts as they backed out when I pulled the m5 screws out.

[Kootenai]

Thoughts on one more 6 hole telemark binding mount on these Swiss cheese skis? Even with 20 holes so far, there is plenty of room where I need to line up the mount.



Yeah, I know I have to reset some of the inserts as they backed out when I pulled the m5 screws out.

You are golden, I have had several inserts and holes within mm of one another and no problems

[Peruvian]

You are golden, I have had several inserts and holes within mm of one another and no problems

Good to hear. Anyone else have experience with this many mount holes?

[galibier_numero_un]

GFlex is the most useful substance I have added to my garage in awhile. An epoxy capable of withstanding torsion? Cracking was the only problem epoxy had before and gflex solved that

If anyone doubts this, the next time you use some, smear any leftover from your session into a thin layer on the paper/cardboard you mixed it on. 24 hours later, check how flexible it is.

... Thom

[LeoK]

I promised to report back on my cheese but it was dumping so first things first: Before dealing with my fucked up RPC I took care of the spoons yesterday night:

What I did:

1. I learned from my mistakes that holes have to be deep enough (I think this applies to life in general) so I measured them - found them not quite good and redrilled for the last half mm with a self-made guide-block and the stop of the drill to get it nicely vertical and don't go through the base.
Drilled one and than cut threads (also with self-made guide) and checked.


2. Drilled all holes a little deeper and cleaned the holes good.

3. One by one cut threads and tested with insert right away. Recut where needed for nice and easy installation. I did not use any force at all this time to really feel if something was off and I never pushed through resistance with cutting or testing the inserts. If you get a little stuck just go back and try again. This way you feel when you reach the bottom of your hole. Cleaned the holes after every little step.

4. Mixed the best glue I could find (UHU Endfest) and installed the inserts one by one.

5. Gently "mounted" the bindings. No worries but for one toe-piece.

On the toe piece issue: It seems the normal mount (before inserts) was not very precise and one or two screws where quite a bit diagonal (not vertical to the ski). So first there was no way to get the machine screws in. I retreated the insert like half or quarter a turn and it could move slightly -> put two screws in that where way longer and pushed them to where I wanted. Then Installed bindings with the to long screws and pushed again against the screws. Binding was not yet flat but floating over the ski. Pushed down the binding and than exchanges the long screws for the proper ones. Binding came into place and I let the epoxy cure like this. Could take bindings off and put back on without to much issues this morning. Seems like the insert stayed tilted a bit and now it should work.

So thank you very much for all your help with this project so far. I am really happy it turned out well at least for the spoon wich are one of my most priced possessions.

Also learned a lot already on how inserts are a game of precision, zen and patience!

[beasttowest]

Just finished test mount of Pivot 14 on 2x4. I *think* it went well but want to triple check with you guys: when I screwed into dry inserts (no epoxy in holes), I got spinners. Is that expected in a dry test since those inserts will be locked in place when I add epoxy in holes on actual ski?

Also concerned that I somehow botched tapping—how would I know if the threads are no good? I wouldn’t be able to get inserts in and flush with top of hole, right?

Drilling, deburring, tapping, dry fit of inserts all seemed to go fine...
Seeing as it was just a 2x4, went the extra step of screwing into inserts as I had one toe hole that was maybe .5mm off. It worked, so my measuring/spacing seems ok.

[dschane]

If you have spinners, you may have overtapped and destroyed the threads. After tapping and driving insert, it should hit bottom of threads and stop spinning (ideally flush or just below flush with ski). It's pretty easy to see whether the threads are done right as they should be clearly visible to the bottom of the hole.

[beasttowest]

The inserts aren’t spinning by themselves/when I inserted them with screwdriver. Cranked them as much as I could with screwdriver, they didn’t budge and we’re nicely flush with top of hole. Only once I screwed in the screws through binding did I encounter spinning.

Not sure if that distinction matters, but figured I’d clarify

Edit: I was extremely gentle screwing inserts in, didn’t crank or exert pressure. Just wanted to emphasize that they didn’t budge/spin initially (pre-screws)

[margotron]

The inserts aren’t spinning by themselves/when I inserted them with screwdriver. Cranked them as much as I could with screwdriver, they didn’t budge and we’re nicely flush with top of hole. Only once I screwed in the screws through binding did I encounter spinning.

Not sure if that distinction matters, but figured I’d clarify

Edit: I was extremely gentle screwing inserts in, didn’t crank or exert pressure. Just wanted to emphasize that they didn’t budge/spin initially (pre-screws)

Sounds like you inserted the inserts properly. They should easily screw into the tapped hole, which it sounds like they did. Nice!

Re them becoming spinners (w/o epoxy) after screwing in the M5 machine screw — I think your explanation makes sense. But I would question how deep the M5 screw is going into your insert?

It shouldn’t bottom out. As I think about it, only after bottoming out the M5 machine screw should the insert itself start to spin clockwise again. Until then the force on the insert should be vertically aligned (i.e. compressing the ski and binding between the top of the screw and the insert).

[beasttowest]

If you have spinners, you may have overtapped and destroyed the threads. After tapping and driving insert, it should hit bottom of threads and stop spinning (ideally flush or just below flush with ski). It's pretty easy to see whether the threads are done right as they should be clearly visible to the bottom of the hole.

Sounds like you inserted the inserts properly. They should easily screw into the tapped hole, which it sounds like they did. Nice!

Re them becoming spinners (w/o epoxy) after screwing in the M5 machine screw — I think your explanation makes sense. But I would question how deep the M5 screw is going into your insert?

It shouldn’t bottom out. As I think about it, only after bottoming out the M5 machine screw should the insert itself start to spin clockwise again. Until then the force on the insert should be vertically aligned (i.e. compressing the ski and binding between the top of the screw and the insert).

Thanks guys. Think my holes weren't deep enough. Practiced drilling a few more and realized I was actually too gentle drilling. Will report back soon

[beasttowest]

Botched it on the actual ski. Sick. Fill and start from scratch like others in this thread? Can I use a dremel at all? holes are furthest to left

[margotron]

I'd flatten the tops flush with a dremel and say to hell with it.


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[cstefanic]

To each their own, but I've skied plenty of days on pairs that have the insert above the topsheet that little bit. Alternately, heat it up, back it out, touch the bottom of the hole with a smaller drill bit, clean out the threads, and re-insert.

[beasttowest]

I'd flatten the tops flush with a dremel and say to hell with it.
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To each their own, but I've skied plenty of days on pairs that have the insert above the topsheet that little bit. Alternately, heat it up, back it out, touch the bottom of the hole with a smaller drill bit, clean out the threads, and re-insert.

Was able to crank down another notch to flush with a big flathead screwdriver. Salvaged it. Thanks for the lightning quick replies guys.

[dschane]

If the epoxy hasn't cured yet, I've used the two-nut lock method to drive the insert flush with the ski. Sometimes I can't use the BF tool to drive the insert to the bottom -- too much epoxy is usually the culprit. The two-nut method is far more powerful and the epoxy just bubbles up and out. I use a little acetone to wipe it away, clean up the screw and nuts, and all is good.

[galibier_numero_un]

To each their own, but I've skied plenty of days on pairs that have the insert above the topsheet that little bit. Alternately, heat it up, back it out, touch the bottom of the hole with a smaller drill bit, clean out the threads, and re-insert.

[edit]While composing this reply, I see that you recovered. I left my reply intact for archival purposes.

@dschane's comment about driving in further makes perfect sense.[/edit]

---

While easy to back out at this point since the epoxy hasn't set, your challenge lies in drilling deeper without mangling the threads in the ski.

The key decision point lies with thread strength. With this size screw, you have full strength when 3 threads are engaged.

I'd determine how much if any of the insert you have to grind off.

IIRC, the inserts have about 5.5 internal threads (turns), meaning you have about 2.5 threads worth of material to grind off, but this is cutting it close, because you don't want to bottom out the screw if you have exactly 3 threads depth to play with.

Since these are my former Quixotes (sigh), you need to know that I use as long a screw as possible. I can't recall the specifics for the Pivot toe screws I sent you, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'm engaging 4.5 or more threads. You might have to grind the screws down after grinding the inserts (or even if the fit is such that you can get away without grinding the inserts).

The more I think about this, the more I think you should drill deeper, but it's a touchy job.

... Thom

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[margotron]

Was able to crank down another notch to flush with a big flathead screwdriver. Salvaged it. Thanks for the lightning quick replies guys.

good job ��

[galibier_numero_un]

http://galibierdesign.com/images/other_forums/BillyGoat_Remount-01.jpg[/IMG]



After plugging:





Inserts installed:





Pray for snow:

[galibier_numero_un]

I'd give serious consideration to any of the plugs that are butted up against their adjacent inserts. I may be OCD, but a few of your plugs give me the creeps.

You've already done the heavy lifting (installing the inserts). If it were me, I'd extract any of the "risky" blue plugs and either fill with JB weld or a matrix of G-flex with fiberglass or steel wool.

... Thom

What I did:

[margotron]

Question Thom. Why not use wood plugs?


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