Dynafit TLT Speed Classic / K2 Wayback bad mount - what to do?

[DavoSch]

Howdy - just looking for some opinions here: (I have revised this after finally skiing them)

I finally ditched my Naxo nx21's and Atomic Snoop Daddy 174's for something light. It appears that I will be doing this for awhile, so why lug all that weight? They were fun, but light was what I wanted.

So, I picked up some K2 Wayback 167's, some Scarpa Spirit 4's with nice one-finger shell fit (comfy and not tight) and some new TLT speed classics. I tried the Spirits for some resort skiing with my Naxo/Atomic setup, and dangit if I ever got performance like that out of an AT boot - my old Denalis were two shell sizes bigger, and I was all over the place.

So, I get these Dynafits mounted by my local Seattle mountaineering/ski shop. I pick them up, and the frigging toes are off by 1.5mm to one side of the ski. They used a jig, so they were both wrong in the same precise way.

To top it off, one boot heel was 7mm off kilter. I could fix that by loosening toe screws, torquing the boot a bit, and then retightening. They probably never even looked at the heels if they let them leave the shop with one heel off axis by 7mm.

I thought that had done the heels wrong, and I was pissed, so I adjusted them to what I thought was right - heel to boot is 4mm. But it isn't. TOP of heel to boot is 4mm. Nub sticking out of heel to boot is something like 1 or 2. Rather critical setting, launched out of skis after going not very far. Glad I checked them out at a resort. i have edited out any previous comments about this, as the shop got this setting right, and I though they had gotten it wrong.

Anyway, so I've got this 1.5mm off issue with the toes, but my heels line up, and they seem to release properly. I can either:

(a) I can keep them the way they are. I skied them at Alpental for a few hours, and they were great. That's probably the last resort skiing they'll see. I had one release sking hard in the bumps, and it was right when I was loosing it - I might have recovered, but I might not have - good release point as far as I'm concerned. I had a couple of other minor wipeouts with no release, didn't want it either - set on 8 for both heel release settings. The damn leashes worked great, too. I got a nice edge whack on the side of my knee, but that will teach me not to fall. Dynafits definitely feel different in the toe, and no cushy comfy ride from the Waybacks, but they seem to do well on ice if I can keep my fillings from falling out.

1.5mm off at the toe is like .2 degrees off - 18 feet off per mile travelled, if my imaginary skis were pointed forward and I went to where my boots pointed. That's not much. Maybe the incorrect angle puts undue wear on my dynafit boot fittings or affects the release, but probably not. The heel is in the middle, but the toe is offset. If given a choice between a stright mount and a crooked one, I'll typically ask for straight. Bummer.

(b) add adjustable risers. Screw that, I don't want the weight. If I want to be higher up, I'll ski on my GS skis in a race or something.

(c) Helicoils - the ski kind. Do it myself or get someone to do it with hole centers drilled 1.5mm to the left of my precisely drilled wrong ones - after measuring, because I may not want to trust the holes that are there. It's a pain, but it might be what I want to do.

(d) remount the suckers 1cm back. I have skied these now and 167 is a bit on the short side, but nice and quick. I feel confident going down just about anything, not so great going real fast. 174 might have been better, definitely much much better for resort skiing, and a must if this were a rockered ski, but they are 09/10 Waybacks so they're not rockered. I'm good with what they are - 167. I was already in the back seat (seems to be a Scarpa thing, yes, I'm using 2nd more forward click) compared to what I'm used to, and after skiing these for a bit, I got myself using the whole length of the edge again and it all became magical. Why mess with something that works - 1cm back remount is out.

(e) sell the skis sans bindings. That's out, I love them now that I've skied them. They go uphill like they have motors on them.

I'm sure there are plenty of opinions, and I would appreciate even the crazy ones.

Thanks,

David

[wooley12]

1.5mm=.05=nothing IMO. As long as the heel fitting drops straight onto the pins. And how do you know they are off? The manufacturing tolerance +/- of the relation between the toe fitting and heel fitting is probably more than that. No excuse for missing the gap setting. I vote to ski them.

[JayPowHound]

If you're checking their work to within a .2mm tolerance, shouldn't you just be mounting your own stuff?? Seems like a pretty minor difference, I say ski 'em and enjoy 'em, then go buy a drill and a bit!!

[nate s]

Probably won't matter if you are ~200lbs and skiing a 167.

[DavoSch]

TLT Speed Classic biniding toes are 1.5 mm closer to starboard side of both skis. I'm not talking about .2mm - whole mm's. Heel 7mm off to one side of the heel pins is not great, but not as bad as it could be. That's no longer an issue after adjusting. Toes could slip back, though. They ski fine, but if I wanted my binding mounted wrong, I would have asked the tech to do that:

"Hey, could you mount these bindings just a little bit off so that they'll be a great remount candidate for anyone who has different size boots than I do? Just make sure you get those holes close enough to where they should be that it drives me nuts and makes a remount really tough! Thanks, here's an extra $20 for beer."

Sloppy mounts work fine with Marker DH bindings, but not with Dynafits.

Thank you, though.

David

[DavoSch]

They are 1.5mm off because (a) I can see that they are off, (b) I don't trust my eyes with all those confusing graphics on skis these days, so I measured that they are 1.5mm off, and (c) my crampons scratch one edge each ski and have a big gap on the other side, even though ski is 88mm underfoot and crampons are 92mm. (c) could be a false read if Dynafit makes things to sloppy tolerances, but they don't, and it isn't.

Please don't turn this into a "buy longer skis, loser" or "get a better ski shop" session. I am aware of both those factors.

David

[GeezerSteve]

7mm off at the heel sounds like a sloppy mount. I've noted that Dynafit boot toe fittings sometimes vary a bit from boot to boot, but that results in a couple of mm off at the heel at most, which is tolerable.

I'd never trust someone else to mount Dynafits, but setting that aside for the moment, if they were my skis I'd carefully drill holes for helicoils in the right place with a drill press. (Well, actually, on my vertical mill because I don't have a drill press.) Drilling properly placed helicoil holes over erroneously placed ABS holes is a bit tricky but can be done with care, patience and a drill press.

[gregL]

7mm is a lot to compensate for by tweaking the screws (did you try that boot in the other ski?). I would be inclined to take them back to the shop, explain that the mount is unsatisfactory and ask for a fresh pair of skis which I would mount myself.

[nate s]

Don't get your panties in a bunch there, it was just the obligatory snarky TGR comment.


Just curious, have you talked with the shop? That would be the first step. I would not monkey around with them, you paid for them to do a job and they didn't do it to your satisfaction. You should give them an opportunity to fix the problem first, in the condition they were given to you.



If the bindings can be loosened and adjusted properly then you are in business, if not they should get you a new pair.


And definitely second what BS said about having someone else mount my Dynafits. No on will take more care in mounting your gear than you.

[Patches]

Are your bindings 1.5mm off the centerline, or is one side 1.5mm closer to the edge than the other? If the latter the holes are only off center by 0.75mm.

And if they are actually off by the whole 1.5mm I still wouldn't worry about it, and I'm nerdy about that kind of stuff.

7mm on the heel though, that would bother me.

[Jubelale]

I would be inclined to take them back to the shop, explain that the mount is unsatisfactory and ask for a fresh pair of skis...

+1

I'm having a hard time thinking of any Seattle area shops that don't go out of their way to make sure their customers are satisfied. But if they don't, I'd like to know for future reference which shop it was.

[sloppy2nds]

call out the shop

[SouthCentralShralper]

It's interesting, as Dynafits become more and more popular I hear about more and more mis-mounts done by shops! Due to the fine tolerances with the toe/heel lineups, I don't trust anyone with my mounts, especially a "mountaineering/ski" shop. If you are not willing to do the work yourself, then you need a REAL ski tech! Not just some shop monkey thats been trained to fit a pack to somebody or light a whisperlight stove! But, because you've paid them for the work and they f*cked up, I'd hold them accountable and see if they'll replace the skis.
Just my $.02.

[Winkler]

Call the shop, if that goes no where epoxy the holes and remount back. Do it yourself this time, it's not that hard especially with step by step instructions at wildsnow.com.

[DavoSch]

Here's what I think I'm going to do. I *might* remount the toes with Helicoils, to be determined later. I skied them finally, and they're great. They could be a little more stable a size up in 174 but they tear up in the tight stuff.

I've got two pairs of race skis that get still get used every now and again, and they've each got a couple of holes for the heels that could use Helicoils, so I spent the $85 to get a ski Helicoil kit, and I can learn on those. I measured a bit more carefully, see below. I spent quite a few minutes yesterday thinking about the "off centerline" or "one side closer to the edge than the other" thing. It would be a real pisser to redrill, only to find i recreated a mirror image of the exact same problem. I'm sure it's been done by more than a few, and my brain goes kind of hayware just turning a bolt when I'm on the wrong side of it, so the the additional help is always appreciated......

Upon a measurement of the toe center, with 0mm being the right edge, 89mm being the left, the toe center is at 43mm. Center to starboard is 43mm, center to port side is 46mm. Skis are 88mm underfoot according to stats, 89mm where I'm measuring at toepiece rear. If those holes were 1.5mm more to the port side, I think that would be what I want them. Of course I can't trust the holes that are there now, as the one boot heel didn't line up, unless the boot is the cause, but it probably isn't, as the other boot did the same thing. Basing the new hole locations off the old ones multiplies my error times the error of the original mount.

In any case, they may be fine as is - it sounds like I don't NEED to remount these. It's probably just a sanity issue at this point. The heels appear fine where they are, boot center is right on, too. If I do remount the toes, I'll use Helicoils, I'll use a drill press, and that ski will be held real good.

It turns out that I thought that the heel gap was wrong, but it wasn't. Ever suspicious of my mount, I readjusted them to what was probably 7mm and promptly launched out of them before even getting to a lift the one time I've tried them out. My bad, fixed 2 slightly worn nickles (4mm) and a screwdriver later. Readjusted with the 4mm Dynafit stick once I got home. So, you measure at the TOP of the heelpiece to boot, not down the entire heel! There's a nub down a bit that sticks out.

I've gotten some requests as to who the shop was, but I haven't completely given them every chance to make this right, so i don't want to flame them. I called them, and they acted very insulted when i asked them if they actually used a jig. I brought my skis in, and they floated the idea of the risers, although they didn't suggest it as a good idea - just a sort of 'see if he likes it' sort of thing. New skis were never mentioned by either party, a remount wasn't suggested, a fix wasn't suggested. They were nice enough, but they were in damage control mode, and it's probably just best to walk away. They're a fine place for equipment and help with it, and I'm just not getting anything mounted there anymore.

I should get the mount fee back, though. I wonder if I should still pay half cause the heel mounts were right?

I'll say who it wasn't - there are only three places in Seattle where i would feel comfortable bringing my skis. Sturtevant's in Bellevue, Marmot Mountainworks Bellevue, and Alpine Hut on Elliott Ave/15th W. Feathered Friends is expensive, awesome stuff, seem to know what they're doing - no mounts there. Don't know if OR even deals with skis. One crappy mount on some old Volant Chubbs (bindings on one ski an inch forward of those on the other, fixed upon my immediate WTF) and one set of overroasted Intuitions by Proski. I have no opinion on REI, other than that I buy lots of stuff there and that each location usually has at least 1 ski tech who can give me great advice - no mounts by them, though. If you count those out and limit your considerations to ski/mountaineering shops, that kind of narrows it down.

wildsnow is awesome - they had everything I needed to know about my Naxos, and they've got everything on my Dynafits. And everything about my beacon. And everything about everything.

Thanks all

David

[DavoSch]

Got the Helicoil kit, ready to go to town on my 2006 GS and SL K2 Motos, just a couple of stripped or sketchy heel holes (from lots of different bindings using the same holes) on each those to fix. Not much to lose on those, and a good place to learn. I'm pretty hesitant to mess with the Waybacks.

Still, if I can drill right over the old holes and get the centers of the new ones 1.5mm to the left, it would work, but it's tricky with a bit that is almost twice as wide as the original 3.6 or 4.1mm. The new holes would be offset to the left, but only by 1.5mm not the entire 2mm I'd get from the additional 4mm width of the bit. I'd have to get it exact with a drill press, and I can't really trust that the old holes were exactly right, as that one heel didn't line up. Some epoxy thrown in probably wouldn't hurt.

Well, I can properly scale a paper template to the holes that are there or the binding riser piece, shave off the raised ridges around the holes, tape that paper template down real good, stright, and even to both sides of the ski, and use a drill press, hopefully disregarding the original holes. If I do it right, there won't be any evidence of the original holes after the drill - they'll be inside the new holes, out of my world, and in the Helicoils will go. That's a plan.

Issue right now is that I'm not sure if those Dynafit screws are the same width as regular scews for Marker DH bindings. They look a bit smaller, but maybe they aren't. If I use screws that are a bit too small for those Helicoils, then of course they'll pull out. Anyway, there's nothing stopping me from getting my money's worth out of that Helicoil kit with those downhill skis, and those screws are probably what the Helicoils are designed for, so I'll do that first, and then I'll have a better idea of what I'm working with. If the Dynafit screws are smaller, then i can use smaller Helicoils or bigger screws.

I wish the professionals could just be as careful measuring as I am, but they're usually in a rush - the better they are, the faster they try to do it. I have lots of time, and I care.

[WyoWill]

I wish the professionals could just be as careful measuring as I am, but they're usually in a rush - the better they are, the faster they try to do it. I have lots of time, and I care.

And this is why you should mount your skis yourself.

[gregL]

there are only three places in Seattle where i would feel comfortable bringing my skis. Sturtevant's in Bellevue, Marmot Mountainworks Bellevue, and Alpine Hut on Elliott Ave/15th W.

If you brought a pair of Dynafits into Sturtevant's to be mounted, I'm pretty sure they would send you to Marmot!

[Chugachjed]

Did you even go back to the shop with the skis and see what they say? It seems to me that you just really want to play with helicoils. I'd go with Jondrums inserts before helicoils any day less material removed and reusable you could potentially swap bindings between skis.

[DavoSch]

No, I didn't really want to play with Helicoils. I was just really excited that I could take care of this, and I did.

I got the $85 kit with the tap, bit, t-handle, and 100 Helicoils, fitted them to a couple of holes that were stripped on my GS and SL race skis, and after getting familiar and seeing that it was quite simple, I did the Waybacks.

I drilled them semi-freehand with a crude one-hole "jig" - an identical size hole in a piece of sheetmetal. With the exception of one hole, the old holes were ok to go off of - they measured up fine. I measured where I wanted the new holes - directly over and about 1.5mm to the left of the old ones, and I fastened that jig down with 2 pairs of vicegrips with rubber pads and drilled straight down. I just made sure I went straight down and used the "jig" to keep those old holes from guiding me the wrong way.

Drill, tap, clean out, put a bit of glue in, inset Helicoil, check holes vs binding as each new hole is drilled, put another drop or two of glue in, mount toe when all done, snug up, snap in boot and check heel alignment, tighten to never come out. Easy.

I'll check heel gap after the glue has dried. I like Epoxy, but I used Gorilla glue this time, as it expands and it works well under pressure.

They are dead on - I couldn't have paid for better. Next time I won't.

Speaking of that, I gotta go get back my $30 that I paid for this mess.

Thanks for the advice and help, everyone.

David